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To: TigersEye
Your post to me is entirely irrational and hysterical.

Uh-huh. Sure it was.

You asked a specific question and I gave you a specific reply backed up with evidence to support my position.

Well, let's take a look at that, shall we? I picked just one piece of that "mountain of evidence" and held it up to the light, specifically this one. In it, Devvy Kidd quotes Ted Sampley a lot, and then goes on to quoting McCain himself. She shares some stuff from a 1973 U.S. News & World Report article he wrote, stuff that is almost word for word repeated in his book "Faith of My Fathers." Here's the quote:

The following is McCain's own admission of collaboration in an article he wrote, printed May 14, 1973 in U.S. News and World Report: "I think it was on the fourth day [after being shot down] that two guards came in, instead of one. One of them pulled back the blanket to show the other guard my injury. I looked at my knee. It was about the size, shape and color of a football. I remembered that when I was a flying instructor a fellow had ejected from his plane and broken his thigh. He had gone into shock, the blood had pooled in his leg, and he died, which came as quite a surprise to us - a man dying of a broken leg. Then I realized that a very similar thing was happening to me.

"When I saw it, I said to the guard, `O.K., get the officer.'"

"An officer came in after a few minutes. It was the man that we came to know very well as "The Bug." He was a psychotic torturer, one of the worst fiends that we had to deal with. I said, `O.K., I'll give you military information if you will take me to the hospital.'"

But what about the part she left out? I don't know if it was in the U.S. News article, but it was in "Faith," on page 191:

I didn't intend to keep up my word, reasoning that after my injuries had been treated, I would be strong enough to deal with the consequences of not holding up my end of the bargain.

On subsequent pages he admits that he did give up his real squadron and ship (information the Vietnamese almost certainly already had) but otherwise gave them false information, like giving the names of the Green Bay offensive line when told he would only receive medical care if he gave up pilot names. They also fail to mention that when he was told he would be filmed saying certain statements or he would not receive further care and his cast would be removed, he said he would not make any such statements. So, here's a guy who believed he would only survive if he received medical care immmediately, and set out to trick his captors (who often didn't provide medical care for pilots with serious injuries, but just let them die) into giving it. Yet there are people like Kidd and Sampley who either don't want us to know the whole story, or could care less what the whole story is.

Just so you know, you're the third person this week (the other two were off FR) who has pointed me to a story about McCain that describes his medical care ploy as a total cave and lies by omission about it. Sampley's site even portrays the Forrestal fire as a case of McCain "losing" a Navy jet. Both of those folks were honorable men, decorated combat veterans I'd wholeheartedly trust with my life. They were deceived...perhaps you were as well. Notice also how Kidd's article has so many charges that it provides no backup for, quotes so many sources not identified, even quotes a guy who says he took film of certain events and another guy who says he has 4,500 photos of events related to the Hilton and treatment of pilots...but where's the film? Where are the pictures? Apparently Kidd also never asks herself, "If what McCain did was collaboration, treason and a court martial offense, why was he writing about it in a national magazine while he was still wearing the uniform?"

Now, I'm not saying all your evidence is crap (I even used a couple of them myself earlier in the primary season) but it looks like you just collect stuff critical of McCain and don't give any real thought to how well the evidence actually holds up. What other conclusion can I reach when you're using articles from Devvy "The Oklahoma City Bombing Was an Inside Job" Kidd?

I don't even know who Bud Day is.

George "Bud" Day is the most decorated living American, and he received the Medal of Honor for his resistance against the Vietnamese torturers, because it nearly killed him. He wrote a book about it called "Return With Honor." He was also McCain's cellmate at the time McCain was supposedly "collaborating" with the North Vietnamese. And guess what? He endorsed McCain. To believe McCain was a collaborator, you pretty much have to believe Bud Day was a traitor, too.

I wasn't at the Hilton. I'm figuring you weren't. Bud Day was there. Maybe you should know who Day and guys like him were before you start posting lists of "evidence" about what went on in the Hilton.

128 posted on 02/15/2008 5:54:37 PM PST by Mr. Silverback (It is not conservative to accept an inept Commander-in-Chief in a time of war.)
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To: Mr. Silverback
(information the Vietnamese almost certainly already had)

Entirely speculation on your part. It gives your POV no substantive support.

Just so you know, you're the third person this week (the other two were off FR) who has pointed me to a story about McCain that describes his medical care ploy as a total cave and lies by omission about it.

I did not point you to that article specifically, endorse it or mention the subject. You picked that out of 79 links. Presumably because you could make a point with it. But you have to hedge your points and prop them up with personal assumptions.

Now, I'm not saying all your evidence is crap (I even used a couple of them myself earlier in the primary season) but it looks like you just collect stuff critical of McCain and don't give any real thought to how well the evidence actually holds up.

I don't want McCain to be our President. That is true. CFR is all I needed to know about in that respect. He is unfit for command on that basis alone. I collect the links and share them because I want people to be informed about what kind of repugnant anti-American weasel McCain is. I have removed ONE link because it was shown to me to be ridiculous garbage. There are a lot of links there and I didn't vet them all either to cull those that don't support my agenda or decide that they were overboard. I made a reasonable effort to see that each provided some substantial information from sources that could be checked. I didn't annoint myself the arbiter of truth or falsehood in regards to them. I leave it to anyone interested in looking at them to make up their own minds.

What other conclusion can I reach when you're using articles from Devvy "The Oklahoma City Bombing Was an Inside Job" Kidd?

That would be a reasonable criterion, depending on your knowledge of that author that I don't share, to cast doubt on that author's work. What about the other 78 links?

Maybe you should know who Day and guys like him were before you start posting lists of "evidence" about what went on in the Hilton.

And maybe you should build your own list of articles supporting McCain.

None of this has had anything to do with your original question, my reply to it, or your hysterical reply to that.

135 posted on 02/15/2008 6:21:40 PM PST by TigersEye (This is the age of the death of reason.)
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To: Mr. Silverback
Here is another list of links on McCain that I didn't collect.
They came from a thread posted in 2000.

FR links on McCain's record from Feb. 2000. MrChips collection.

137 posted on 02/15/2008 6:27:56 PM PST by TigersEye (This is the age of the death of reason.)
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