U Said: Show me where I have made a string of personal attacks on you. On your belief system, yes.
When you pick up one end of a stick, you pick up the other too.
In Post 643 you said: Just because you call him Jesus doesn’t mean he is.
In Post 516 you said: I have attacked the hellacious religion you follow.
In Post 516 you said: I can see I would be casting pearls before swine.
In Post 526 you said: You aren’t interested in Scripture
In Post 489 you said: your founder, Joseph Smith was into the occult
In Post 79 you said: That’s the sad reality of Mormon doctrine.
U Said: But I have been rather factual in my statements and I have backed up what I have said.
Actually, I can't remember a single link, or Quotation in your posts, merely unsupported assertions. Please show where you sourced anything that could be checked by clicking on it...
U Said: You know better than that. The LDS Jesus was born after God the Father who was once a man had sex with one of his wives in the planet near the star Kolob.
Your crudity here does not make you accurate, merely distasteful to talk to.
Mormons Believe that God is the Father of our Spirits...
Heb. 12: 9 9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?
How exactly do you father Spirits? Mormons don't claim to know, yet anti Mormons always want to talk about celestial Sex, I think you all have dirty minds.
U Said: The biblical Jesus IS God and never had a beginning as God. Period. Case closed. End of story.
Rev. 22: 13 13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.
So what does it men to be he Beginning?, if you are the Beginning, do you not have a Beginning? Your assertions show a lack of understanding of the Bible, but just a repeating of Dogma learned by rote.
U Said: Mormonism has a false Christ that it preaches and trying to say "we're Christian" doesn't cut it any more than the evil kook in Central America saying that he is Christ cuts it.
Apparently I need to explain the Difference between a faith, and religion.
A
Faith in this context is Belief in something.
To Be Chrsitain, you must have a belief in Jesus Christ. That's it. To be Buddhist you must have a belief in Buddha. To be Moslem you must have a belief in Mohammad.
Within the Faiths there are divisions of Creed and Doctrine, which make up sects or Churches.
A
Church in this context is a Legal, structural entity for the purpose of harmonizing the teachings of the creeds of a faith accepted by that church. A church may declare ordinances, Cannon, Creeds and Dogma's that must be accepted in order for member ship in the Church to be valid. As such, failure to accept any required conditions for continued membership in the Church can result in expulsion from that Church. Churches can be started by anyone professing a faith who meets the legal requirements of the country and or state they reside in.
Now, I have stated and testified that I have Faith in Jesus, you no more get to define which or what Jesus than I get to write checks on you bank account. As for who is acceptable to Jesus, Jesus will decide that, and here is a news flash for you, you are not him.
You wonder why I get so worked up about this? Whenever I see anyone trying to take Jesus place, I get a bit bent out of shape, because I have been commanded to. You don't want to believe with me, Fin, you want to tell me I am no longer a member of the "Blogger church" he no sweat, I didn't know I had joined. but you try to take Jesus' place and judge my heart, you are going to meet with resistance, and I believe you will find that most people take being judged personally!
U Said: Number one, notice how you frame your arguments. I am framing them "the LDS church teaches" You are framing them "You [personally] don't understand". That's the difference between making it personal and discussing a belief.
Let me make this clear, I am a Mormon, if you state that Mormons are not Christians, I will Take it personally for my relationship with Jesus is very important to me and you are trying to take that away, worse, presuming an authority you just don't have. Only Jesus can decide if I am Christian or not and you have no business butting in, you are not Jesus Christ, are we clear?
As for your scriptures, Great you can cut and paste, linking is better because then people can read things in context, I do both on my posts. It's also nice to use <blockquote></blockquote> to offset scriptures with so people can see where the Scriptures start and end better.
U Said: The CLEAR teaching of Scripture is that there is only one God.
On that, I agree.
U Said: Since there are 3 persons worshiped as God in Scripture (the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit) then we believe by faith the biblical doctrine of the Trinity.
Except that is not what the Bible, or Jesus said: Try
John 17:22 where Jesus himself draws an analogy with the Oneness the Disciples are to have with his and the Fathers Oneness:
22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:
How did the Disciples become as one? Did they suddenly have the same substance? Or did they become one in heart might mind and strength? Thus becoming one with each other, and one with Jesus?
U Said: To say there are many gods is biblically false.
Actually, It is Biblically accurate, See
1 Cor. 8: 5 They exist, but we are to worship only the God of Abraham, and of Isaac and of Jacob.
U Said: To say we may someday be gods is not only biblically false but it is to perpetuate the lie that Satan told Eve in the garden.
Actually, Satan will Tell he truth to pass a lie, and since this "Lie" was confirmed by God as truth, it is true unless you are saying God is also a liar. You reference, well, sort of
Genesis 3:5 5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.
And ignore
Genesis 3:22 later where is says:
So God confirmed that they had become like him in exactly the way Satan had promised. 22 ¶ And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:
You can't even trust Satan to lie all the Time...
And what's with the Lord God saying "Us"? Us who? Lets back up a bit.
In
Genesis 1:26-27 26 ¶ And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.
The Mormon perspective that "God" can either mean all of the Members of the Godhead (a word that is in the Bible), or any member of the God head fits really well with the scriptures, indeed this definition came from God.
Also, where did God get an image to create man after? (Trinitarian OOPS...)
U Said: God is the Only God and Jesus is his eternally pre-existent Son.
This is gobbledy Gook, The apostles understood that all were preexistant as spirits, See
1 And as Jesus passed by, he saw a man which was blind from his birth.
2 And his disciples asked him, saying, Master, who did sin, this man, or his parents, that he was born blind?
3 Jesus answered, Neither hath this man sinned, nor his parents: but that the works of God should be made manifest in him.
So, the Disciples were asking if a blind man had sinned and thus been
Born blind, Jesus did not tell them he could not have sinned, because he had taught them the Doctrine!
U Said: One in nature and essence with God the Father and the Spirit.
The Godhead is one, but not of substance, your mish mash is incomprehensible because of the Greeks and Hellenists influence on the Nicene creed. They believed that God should not be understandable, God should be mysterious.
U Said: 3 persons. One God. Don't understand it? Then join the club.
I do understand the nature of God, for he has revealed himself in these the latter days.
U Said: God is far greater than we could ever fully grasp and we see through a glass darkly. We aren't meant to fully understand and if we do, our god is too small.
Your Vision of God may be too small, mine is not. The Jews and Even Jesus taught that God could be understood, In
John 17:3 We are taught:
3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.
You see, you need to know God (one personage) and Jesus Christ (one personage) who was sent By God the Father, two distinct personages. Gee, and it's all there in the Bible...
U Said: The LDS says that our works determine which heaven we go to - the one where non-Mormons go (the lowest), the one where somewhat faithful Mormons go. The one where obedient Mormons go where they can aspire to godhood.
I Said: You have a limited at best understanding, this explanation of yours is entirely wrong.
U Said: Explain to me where it is wrong.
I was afraid you were going to say that, and worse you start a huge paragraph of "wrong" with it.
Let's start with your first statement that Works determine where you go, it's simply not a Mormon belief. You can do every thing "right" and not have faith and not go to heaven. You can screw up all the time and continually repent and make it to heaven, the more common path however is supposed to be to repent when you sin, do the works as you can and increase your faith thereby and get to heaven.
Now, you also Talk about Mormons being the only ones to Go to heaven, we believe that everyone will be judged according to what they know. This is one of the reasons Jesus is the judge, for he knows the thoughts and intents of our hearts, and as such can judge every man according to his knowledge, know only a little, be judged by a lower bar, know a lot, be judged by a higher bar, for unto whom much is Given, much is required. Of course, we are also commanded to learn...
There will be many Mormons who do not make it into "Heaven" as you term it because while we knew a lot we did a little. and other who while not knowing much did a lot who will get "in" ahead of them. Again, this no one why Jesus needs to be the Judge for not even the wisest mortal will be able to discern with righteousness.
Whew! Tat was just your first sentence...
U Said: Can a nominal Mormon go to the Celestial Heaven and become a god? Can a non-Mormon do so that was never baptized into the Mormon church? Never tithed to the Mormon church?
Sure, they will be baptized by Proxy, sealed by Proxy, and since they are dead, they typically aren't earning much, so no problem on the tithing front. Why do you think we do Temple work, if it's not to allow all to be judged according to their knowledge, not because of some missed ordinance. There are genuinely good people who never heard the Gospel, why should they be damned and why should I be "Saved" just because of the circumstances of my birth? We do not believe that God is a respecter of "persons".
U Said: Please, show me where I'm wrong on that.
Ask, and ye shall receive...
U Said: Doctrine and Covenants 88:22 says ""For he who is not able to abide the law of a celestial kingdom cannot abide a celestial glory."
U Said: In other words, he who doesn't follow the Mormon rules doesn't get the highest glory.
Um you seem to forget, if we are wrong, then none of this matters, if we are right, they are God's rules. Would you be offended if I said "If you don't follow God's rules you can't enter into his kingdom"? Of course not. And unlike most protestants we don't believe that it's heaven or Hell that's it, we believe that "in my father's house are many mansions" Thus only the most evil and vile deniers of Christ will be cast off completely.
Besides, If you want to quote from the Bible, fine, pear it down, I and most people here will be familiar with it, if you want to Quote from the D&C, you need to give more for Context, here, let me show you:
D&C 88:14-25 14 Now, verily I say unto you, that through the redemption which is made for you is brought to pass the resurrection from the dead.
15 And the spirit and the body are the soul of man.
16 And the resurrection from the dead is the redemption of the soul.
17 And the redemption of the soul is through him that quickeneth all things, in whose bosom it is decreed that the poor and the meek of the earth shall inherit it.
18 Therefore, it must needs be sanctified from all unrighteousness, that it may be prepared for the celestial glory;
19 For after it hath filled the measure of its creation, it shall be crowned with glory, even with the presence of God the Father;
20 That bodies who are of the celestial kingdom may possess it forever and ever; for, for this intent was it made and created, and for this intent are they sanctified.
21 And they who are not sanctified through the law which I have given unto you, even the law of Christ, must inherit another kingdom, even that of a terrestrial kingdom, or that of a telestial kingdom.
22 For he who is not able to abide the law of a celestial kingdom cannot abide a celestial glory.
23 And he who cannot abide the law of a terrestrial kingdom cannot abide a terrestrial glory.
24 And he who cannot abide the law of a telestial kingdom cannot bide a telestial glory; therefore he is not meet for a kingdom of glory. Therefore he must abide a kingdom which is not a kingdom of glory.
25 And again, verily I say unto you, the earth bideth the law of a celestial kingdom, for it filleth the measure of its creation, and transgresseth not the law—
U Said: Mormon President Joseph Fielding Smith taught That the most important part of our existence is right here and now and what we do with our time here. For, our life here "would either give to those who received it the blessing of eternal life, which is the greatest gift of God, and thus qualify them for godhood as sons and daughters of our Eternal Father, or, if they rebelled and refused to comply with the laws and ordinances which were provided for their salvation, it would deny them the great gift and they would be assigned, after the resurrection, to some inferior sphere according to their works" (Doctrines of Salvation 1:69).
What a wonderful example of taking something out of Context.
Doctrines of Salvation was published in 1956, Joseph Fielding Smith did not become prophet, or President of the church until 1970, 14 years later, so attributing this to him as prophet is clearly wrong.
Moreover, your Quotation starts mid sentence, which is why the preamble in your own words, here, I have broken out the quotation so people can see it for what it is, and obvious
Quote mining attempt. Lastly, I have tried to find this quotation from any verifiable source, and can only find it in Circular references by Anti Mormons sites, can you point to the actual original text anywhere? if not, it is merely your opinion until backed up, not to mention it does not meet up with church teachings on Life and Judgment. The most recent article I can find on the Church web site
Salvation: By Grace or by Works? Quotes Joseph F Smith saying the exact opposite point you are trying to make here.
U Said: 12th Mormon President Spencer Kimball speaks of the finality of what "sphere" we end up in according to our works - "No progression between kingdoms. After a person has been assigned to his place in the kingdom, either in the telestial, the terrestrial, or the celestial, or to his exaltation, he will never advance from his assigned glory to another glory. That is eternal! That is why we must make our decisions early in life and why it is imperative that such decisions be right."
Your second Quotation does not do us even the Courtesy of giving a reference to look up, again, it is not quoting Church Policy, nor church teachings and is unverifiable. IMHO, you blew your cut and past from an anti Mormon web site.
There is no Cannonized position on what we refer to as progression between the kingdoms. Some apostles have spoken for it, some against. But God has not seen fit to give us a revelation us revelation one way or the other. The reason for this is obvious to any who think about it, is this important to our salvation? No.
U Said: So again, if I am wrong - please show me. From your scriptures and past Presidents voices, it appears I'm dead on right.
Actually, I gave you an official church publication, you gave me unverifiable "Quotations" and no references that Check out.
(Next time, Cut and paste more carefully, and FYI the Mormonism Research Ministry has had "non existent quotations" (also known as lies) on it before, so check before you copy and post...) "Can a mortal ask questions which God finds unanswerable? Quite easily, I should think. All nonsense questions are unanswerable." - C.S. Lewis
U Said: Which version of the story are we talking about? The one he spoke of in 1832 where his Bible study spurs him to wonder which religion is true, or the one 1838 version where it was a non-existent revival that spurred him to ask the question? The 1832 version where just the son appears to him? Or the 1838 version where both the Father and the Son appear to him? Or the version his mother Lucy told where it was an angel appearing to him? Maybe it is one of the other 6 versions of the vision out there.
This Youtube video explains: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NHPpG4SZxlw
You tube as Authoritative? ROTFLOL
As for which version, there is only one Cannonized version, it can be found
Here. As for accounts recorded by others, well, have you ever played Telephone?
Joseph did indeed write several versions, and expressed dissatisfaction with them, I suppose if there were multiple copies of the Gettysburg address before Abraham Lincoln gave it you would think it diminished his delivery of it.
So, did you make the Video your self, or did you get the link from an Anti Mormon site.
Have you ever told a true story to two different groups of people say one group of children, and one group of adults? I have, and the "True" story changes with the audience, with adults I may emphasize more intellectual aspects and with the Children I may omit details that increase the required attention span, and play up action sequences. Police who are taking statements expect variation when the same suspect is grilled over and over by differing police, if the story is always identical, they know it is rehearsed.
I also find it interesting that Joseph's obvious effort in writing his story is brushed aside when it comes to the Book of Mormon, he can hardly tell his own story in print, but he translates the Book of Mormon in 84 days, that's Dang fast for a Guy with a third grade education... not to mention the Addition of
Chiasmus in the Book of Mormon and other linguistic things from Hebrew writings he could not have known about.
Either Joseph smith had a Time machine, or he was a prophet for he just has too many things right that there was no way for him to get right any other way.
U Said: Okay, Archaeological evidence contradicts Mormonism.
Actually, there is a ton of evidence supporting it like,
The Los Lunas Hebrew Inscription, but I will never prove it true to you, that takes prayer and faith.
U Said: DNA evidence contradicts Mormonism.
Actually, the
DNA is exactly as you would expect it to be.
U Said: Biblical evidence contradicts Mormonism.
Actually, there is a ton of evidence for the Book of Mormon, the
Chiasmus Mentioned above for example, without the Bible, we wouldn't know to look for them in the Book of Mormon, and there they are...
U Said: Historical evidence contradicts Mormonism.
I have found plenty of
Mundane / Historical Evidence.
U Said: It is up to you whether or not you abandon it.
When you have the truth, Stand pat, and I will, thanks.