Posted on 02/03/2008 7:18:44 PM PST by Delacon
Why do you think that is a problem? A fuel that absorbs H2O is a good thing. It means you will never get a chunk of ice in your gas tank.
“Besides, ethanol can be produced from non-food crops just as surely as it can be produced from corn”
I don’t have the info handy but I know I read that ethanol requires plants high in starch or sugars in order to be efficiently produced. Not methanol.
Take my state, for example. There are farmers harvesting 200 bu/acre corn fairly regularly when 100 bu/acre was the norm a decade or two ago, due to the intense heat and humidity we endure. Cotton ground is being turned into corn ground at a head turning rate.
Same goes for wheat. Last year my husband and I averaged 90 bu/acre on our wheat harvest. That is almost unheard of here. This year there is wheat as far as the eye can see because new varieties are allowing us to take advantage of the good market price. With double-cropping, which we can do because of the long growing season that we enjoy here, cotton and grain sorghum will be planted behind the wheat.
“Granted, much more work on methanol fuel-cell membranes to make it work, but this is a real possibility, except for the fact that it won’t rely on midwest corn - so it’s politicaly non-viable.”
Actually I read that an amendment to a bill to mandate Methanol adaptable cars was attached to a bill a few years back. It was removed by Trent Lott at the request of Japanese auto makers. Why I don’t know but man I can’t stand that guy.
Are you telling me that all the articles I’ve read about how the increased demand for corn due to the ethanol mandate causing the increase in prices in corn based food stuffs and the meat/dairy industry are wrong? I’ll have to look into that. I’ll start here.
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=ethanol+causing+increase+dairy+prices
You might be thinking of propanol.
But as I remember, wood alcohol burns with an “invisible” flame. You have to turn the lights out to see the flame. That makes it kinda dangerous if you get it on your clothing and catch it on fire...it’s hard to put out a flame that you can’t see.
Then again, I might be getting methanol and propanol mixed up.
We’ve already got government mandated ethanol added to our gasoline. If this stuff is so great, why don’t we just make our ethanol additive a 50-50 mix of ethanol and methanol?
“But as I remember, wood alcohol burns with an “invisible” flame. You have to turn the lights out to see the flame. That makes it kinda dangerous if you get it on your clothing and catch it on fire...it’s hard to put out a flame that you can’t see.”
Just as surely as we put in an additive to make natural gas stink, we can put in an additive to make methanol burn blue or some other color.
If filling our tanks and heating our homes wasn't costing an arm and a leg, perhaps $4.50 for a gallon of milk wouldn't be quite as painful. Additionally, if grasses and wheat straw and other things that you seem to think don't get used for anything else are being utilized for methanol production, what about all of the land that currently produces hay for feeding to livestock?
I'm not convinced that there is enough scrub land in this country to produce everything needed for full scale methanol production. I certainly could be wrong. Do you have figures?
Methanol is not THE answer, but it is definitely part of the solution. There is no ONE solution. We need to develop many and let the winners lead the way and the other wither on the vine, so to speak. Solar works in some areas, wind in others. Unless we stop looking for THE solution, we are blinded by the problem.
Ethanol production is simple fermentation of sugar by yeast. It is possible to ferment complex starches by use of a mold called Aspergillus oryzae. The mold converts complex starches into simple sugars that the yeast can convert to ethyl(or ethanol), wich is drinkable alcohol.
The japanese invented this process to make rice wine...aka sake...pronounced “socky’.
But the fibrous matter, or cellulose, can only be converted to wood alcohol(methanol). As far as I know, that is. In the old days of bootlegging moonshine, a bad batch that killed people was simply a batch of grain alcohol(ethanol) that had been contaminated with a bit of wood alcohol. Bacteria produces wood alcohol. Yeast produces grain alcohol.
Then there is potato oil, or fusel oil. This is a nasty byproduct of normal fermentation that gives you a headache with your hangover.
Look up Mobion fuel cell of Mechanical Technology Company (ticker MKTY). They have a patented process for water management in a methanol fuel cell.
“I applogize if the article covers this but methanol has a very high octane rating which allows much higher compression ratios.
Higher compression, better effiency. This partially makes up for the decreased energy content”
Octane equates to HP or MPG if the engine has a turbo on it.
Low octane is one of the reasons for the use of such large engines. A small 6 cylinder with a turbo at 20” of boost will make more power than a large V8.
It might be best to mix down to a 50/50 ratio of gas and methanol and let the computer adjust the timing.
A true flex fuel auto needs to have a turbo to change the effective compression ratio for burning different octane fuels.
There is a lot of ideas that could get us to about 50MPG for larger SUV’s but they will cost a little more.
So that $62,000 Escalate just might cost $70.000
I think one of the points earlier was that while methanol is toxic in high concentrations, it is harmless at low concentrations.
“What isn’t said is that methanol doesn’t have as much energy as gasoline, so you don’t get as good mileage.”
You obviously didn’t read the article.
“Higher prices do not equal a problem in producing enough food. That is apparently where we are running into a communication problem. We have no problem producing enough ... you just don’t want prices to rise.”
I didn’t say higher prices are a problem in producing enough food. Don’t be disingenuous. I am saying higher prices for food are THE problem.
“If filling our tanks and heating our homes wasn’t costing an arm and a leg, perhaps $4.50 for a gallon of milk wouldn’t be quite as painful.”
Sorry but I want both. I want cheaper food and cheaper fuel for my car. I am crazy that way.
“Additionally, if grasses and wheat straw and other things that you seem to think don’t get used for anything else are being utilized for methanol production, what about all of the land that currently produces hay for feeding to livestock?
I’m not convinced that there is enough scrub land in this country to produce everything needed for full scale methanol production. I certainly could be wrong. Do you have figures?”
I honestly don’t know. I’ll look into it and get back to you but I am pretty sure I read that there is land a plenty available that can be used to grow only non food crops and non feed crops enough to meet our fuel demands. I want to point out though that in a head to head comparison between ethanol and methanol, ethanol loses no matter what because the land farmers are useing now for ethanol production could just as easily be used for methanol production and then there is all the other land not being used for anything right now but could be used to grow crops that only can be used to make methanol on top of that. A previous poster even pointed out that corn could be used to produce both at the same time. Ethanol only uses the starch of the corn, thats only a portion of the kernel. Methanol could be made from everything else in the seed and the stalk.
“Methanol is not THE answer, but it is definitely part of the solution. There is no ONE solution. We need to develop many and let the winners lead the way and the other wither on the vine, so to speak. Solar works in some areas, wind in others. Unless we stop looking for THE solution, we are blinded by the problem.”
I agree. I even have an article here where George Olah practically said the exact same thing you did there. But from what I am getting from this article is correct then methanol could be the biggest part of the solution.
Thanks for the info.
“Isn’t methanol highly toxic?”
Don’t drink it.
Ummm...
why not recycle the corn stalk to produce the methanol ???
we can grow all the corn we need, and the by-products (stalks and leaves) can be used to produce methanol...
Am I wrong?
coal—>methanol
Not an alternative. Not enough energy density.
Find out how many acres are in the CRP program and what the CRP program is paying farmers to do with that land. The answer is quite illuminating.
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