Posted on 01/22/2008 1:19:28 PM PST by VegasBaby
Jesus died for me. I’m a Mormon. It doesn’t matter that you call us names (”cult” members). We are used to it - and much worse. We are a peculiar people; I will grant you that.
You were saying — “But as I say, no matter how many times you keep saying up is down, it doesn’t make it so.”
You’re right about that. AND, that works both ways. In other words, the fact that Mormons are classified as a “non-Christian cult group” — is not true because I “simply say so” — and — neither is it *not so* — simply because “you say so”.
What “makes it so” (since it’s not on the basis of you own “authority” saying no or my own “authority” saying yes) — is — the examination that many researchers have made — outlining and *documenting* the Mormon teachings and doctrines — and showing where they deviate from Christian teachings and doctrines.
That’s very easy to show — and has nothing to do with either you saying “no” and/or me simply saying “yes”.
For example, one teaching is that Satan is the spirit brother of Jesus. That is easily verified by anyone who wants to check it out. Christian teaching and doctrine totally *rejects* that (as the Bible teaches something *totally different*). However Mormons teach (and assert) that it is true (i.e., that Jesus is the spirit brother of Satan).
Christianity teaches and has for its doctrines that Satan was created an angel — while Jesus (as the Son of God, and one part of the Trinity) was never created or born, in His divine nature. He (Jesus) is a being that is *not* (and never was) in the same class, status or being as Satan, because Satan had a “beginning” and Jesus, as the Son of God, never had a beginning, was never born, and has always been the same uncaused and forever-existent being, and one part of the Trinity, existing outside of time and matter.
In fact, Christianity teaches that Jesus, in his forever-pre-existent divine nature, existing before the creation of the world and universe and before “time and matter”, as the uncaused being, one part of the Trinity — was the one who actually “created” Satan, as an angel, in the beginning. Thus, Jesus in his divine nature is the uncaused and forever-pre-existent being of the Trinity — and He created Satan, who (himself) “had a beginning”.
Thus, Satan and Jesus are not even related in the *least* (not even in the slightest degree), either here (or “there”) or in this time frame or in any time frame, in the past or at any point in time.
That’s something that is not from me and/or it’s not from you — and so, it depends on neither one of us saying so, one way or another. That’s how this sort of thing is verified — that the Mormons teach *deviant doctrines* (from the “standard” of what Christianity teaches).
Another one is that, according to Mormon teaching, God, the Father — has the appearance of a man (you know..., like two arms, two legs, a body, head, fingers, etc... [all the stuff that a man has]).
And, Christianity *rejects* that as not taught from the Bible, and is a *deviant* teaching — totally in opposition to what Christianity teaches. Christianity teaches that God the Father is not like a man, but is spirit only, *not* having the appearance of a man (or the various and miscellaneous body parts of a man). And Christianity teaches (and has for its foundational doctrines) that God the Father has *never been a man* at any time.
Only Jesus (as one part of the Trinity), in the “incarnation” took on the form of a man, in full conjunction with His diving nature (that divine nature that was never born, never “caused, never having a beginning, being forever *self-existent*).
The “human nature” of Jesus, in His “incarnation” was born, and thus, Jesus, is both fully divine (having always pre-existed — and — was born (had a “beginning”), in the incarnation (in His human form) — both natures being fully integrated, and not diminished one with the other. This is Christian teaching and doctrine and Christianity totally rejects Mormon teaching.
And thus, with this doctrine and teaching, which is not dependent on either you or me — we find that Christianity finds Mormon teaching and doctrine totally *deviant* from what Christianity teaches and what Christianity has for doctrines.
Furthermore, we find that Mormons teach that God the Father had sexual relations with Mary — and “additionally” that Mary was the *wife* of God the Father — and she conceived in the normal manner as she would with any man (in the same manner it would happen “as if” another man had sexual relations with her).
We see a quote from Mormon teachings... “The fleshly body of Jesus required a Mother as well as a Father. Therefore, the Father and Mother of Jesus, according to the flesh, must have been associated in the capacity of husband and wife; hence the Virgin Mary must have been, for the time being, the lawful wife of God the Father: we use the term lawful wife, because it would be blasphemous in the highest degree to say that He overshadowed her or begat the Savior unlawfully........He had a lawful right to overshadow the Virgin Mary IN THE CAPACITY OF A HUSBAND, and beget a Son.......Whether God the Father gave Mary to Joseph for time only, or for time and eternity, we are not informed. It may be that He only gave her to be the wife of Joseph while in this mortal state, and that He intended after the resurrection to again take her as one of his own wives to raise up immortal spirits in eternity.”
Apostle Orson Pratt, “The Seer,” Oct. 1853, p. 158).
Once again, we see that this is in total opposition to Christian teachings and doctrines (not only about the nature of God the Father, but also in that God the Father had Mary as *his wife* and additionally, had sexual relations with her and had a “son” in the normal fashion as any other man would.
Christianity classifies this, once again, as *totally deviant teachings* and has never taught any such thing.
So, these are the “methods” by which we find that Mormon teaching and doctrines are *totally deviant* from Christian teaching and doctrines — and why Christianity classifies Mormon teaching and doctrine as “cult teaching” and the Mormon Church as a “cult group” — by the standards of basic, historic and foundational Christianity.
We see that these things have absolutely nothing to do with “me saying so” or with “you saying so” (to the contrary). It is shown to *be so* — in that those teachings of Mormon theology is *totally deviant* from Christian teaching and doctrine and theology.
—
As far as one church or another (you name it) being a “cult according to someone” — is not what Christianity is talking about, when it classifies Mormon theology as *deviant* theology and in total opposition to Christian teaching and doctrine. It’s not a matter of “someone” simply “saying so” and thus a “personal opinion” limited to one or two or so people.
It comes from an entire “body of work” and research and well-established Christian teachings and doctrines, from almost two thousand years of Christianity being in existence.
And, in that light — Mormon teaching and doctrine is *found to be so* (deviant from Christian theology)— according to their own authoritative books, their own “prophets” and teachers, and materials and teachings.
Christianity establishes “for itself* what is the essence and core of Christian teaching and doctrine, and has done so, over the centuries. It’s by these means that the various Christian churches are considered (one to another, “Christian” in their teachings and doctrines) — while *others* (like the Mormon Church) is considered to be a non-Christian cult group, and totally *deviant* in terms of the *standard* and essence of basic, historic and foundational Christianity.
So, it has nothing to do wtih me saying so or you saying so (in opposition). It has *everything* to do with the Mormon Church teachings *deviant* doctrines that have nothing at all to do with Christian teaching and doctrine.
Regards,
Star Traveler
P.S. — I just gave a very few examples of the deviant teachings of the Mormon Church. It takes *entire books* to *fully document* the “total scope” of the deviancy of the teaching of the Mormon Church, because it is *so extensive* in its deviancy. “Books and books” on the deviancy of the Mormon Church, in relation to the teachings and doctrines of Christianity have been written, which document all the details of that deviancy of the Mormon Church and how it is classified as a “non-Christian cult group”.
You would make Walter Martin proud.
I know this is hard, and you may think what you are
saying is falling on deaf ears. But someone out there
is reading your posts and God is lifting the veil so
that they can understand. Hang in there. Don’t give up.
God is using you and your extraordinary gifts to bring
people to a full, authentic understanding of the Gospel
of our beloved Jesus Christ.
Well, thanks Jo...
I sure do hope that someone (who didn’t know before) would know more now, after reading some of those posts. That’s always a sincere hope and prayer...
The very fact that you have to work this hard to try to make a point is evidence itself of the weakness of your position. Again, keep saying the sky is red doesn’t make it red.
You said — “Again, keep saying the sky is red doesn’t make it red.”
No, *only* because I say it’s red doesn’t make it red. That’s right. However, if the sky is red and I say it’s red — then it’s the “redness of the sky” that makes it red... LOL!
And likewise with Romney. He isn’t a member of a non-Christian cult group — just because I say so. He’s is a member of a non-Christian cult group because the facts of the matter, in comparison with all the doctrines and teaching of the Mormon Church, with the basic, historic and foundational Christian teachings show that this is the case. The facts of the matter speak for themselves.
So, “just because I say so” — not at all. But, because he belongs to a group which departs from every major and foundational doctrine of Christianity — yes..., on that basis.
Regards,
Star Traveler
P.S. — You can see some of those *deviations* from basic, historic and foundational Christianity (i.e., “the sky is red”) from the last post that you’re responding to... :-)
Keep saying it and eventually maybe even you will believe it.
You said — “Keep saying it and eventually maybe even you will believe it.”
Well, fortunately for me and any others who want to see it — it’s well researched and documented by many Christian seminaries and their courses in “Systematic Theology” and their comparisons to other non-Christian cult groups, in seeing how they stand up to the core basics and essentials of Christianity.
All I have to do is simply read their documentation. I mean, I could spend all my waking time, from now to the end of my life, day-in-and-day-out, reading all the documentation for all the radical and deviant differences of Mormon theology to basic, historic and foundational Christian teachings and doctrines — and I would never get to the end of it. That’s how extensive and well documented it is.
BUT — of course — a person has to be interested in getting at the truth in the first place, before they’ll ever go into it and find it out for themselves. As I can see here, many are simply not interested in finding out that truth, from many good and reliable sources who have done so much work on the topic of Mormon teachings and doctrines being a cult group, in the definition of basic, historic and foundational Christianity, as it has been taught for almost two millennia.
Regards,
Star Traveler
Still saying it. Obviously you don’t believe it yet. You’re really wasting bandwidth here, you know.
You were saying..., “Still saying it. Obviously you don’t believe it yet. You’re really wasting bandwidth here, you know.”
Well, you might be right — if — you were the only one who was reading it. But, considering that Romney is in the news, and a lot of people are talking about him, and considering that more people read comments without ever posting — I would say that there may be quite a few readers who may be informed, for the first time, that Romney belongs to a non-Christian cult group, since the MSM never makes that sort of thing clear (along with a lot of other things they don’t make clear).
And also, considering the fact that the Mormon church seems intent on deceiving quite a few unsuspecting members of the general public, that they actually teach Christian doctrines (just like another Christian denomination), when they actually don’t — it serves the public well, for them to know these things and be aware of those facts.
BUT, if we were talking about you being the sole reader of these comments, then it would be very well true that I would be wasting my time, because it’s obvious that no matter what facts are presented, from many other authoritative sources and from the basic, historic and foundational position of Christianity, that Mormon doctrine and teachings *radically departs* from Christianity — that you don’t care to pay any attention to those things.
And that’s fine, because not everyone wants to know the truth about Mormonism.
Fortunately, there are others in the general public reading this.
—
As far as “bandwidth”, considering that this is “text” — that’s like saying, when someone drops a penny on the ground, that if they’re not careful, they’re going to go bankrupt... LOL!
If you’re that concerned about your bandwidth, I would advise getting a provider that gives you unlimited Internet service. It works a lot better than paying by the KB.... :-)
Regards,
Star Traveler
I’m not a bit worried about it. If it takes you a billion words to refute ten of mine, who has truth on their side?
Son of man (STAR TRAVELER), I have appointed you a watchman
to the house of Israel; whenever you hear a word from My mouth, warn
them (LS and OVRTAXT) from Me. When I say to the wicked, ‘You will
surely die,’ and you do not warn him or speak out to warn the wicked
from his wicked way that he may live, that wicked man shall die in his iniquity,
but his blood I will require at your hand. Yet if you have warned the wicked and
he does not turn from his wickedness or from his wicked way, he shall die
in his iniquity; but you have delivered yourself. (EZEKIEL 3:17-19)
I’d say that you have done your job of sounding the warning. Well done good
and faithful servant.
His always... Jo
You said — “I’m not a bit worried about it. If it takes you a billion words to refute ten of mine, who has truth on their side?”
Well, I’m glad you’re not really concerned about your bandwidth. For a minute there, I thought you exhibited some concern over it.... :-)
As far as the number of words — whether we use a “sound bite” or “write a book” — neither is a measure of truth. As I see it (from your various comments up above) you seem to go with parameters that have nothing to do with a measurement or determination of “truth”. They are mostly, I would say, simply sound bites..., nothing more. And, as we all know from the MSM, sound bites provide precious little in the way of truth, in and of themselves. We’ve all heard them, in the various political discussions. A sound bite is worth — ummm...., well..., probably not too much, actually, if someone doesn’t have an understanding of the subject at hand.
And in this case, the “subject at hand” is the fact that Romney is a member of a non-Christian cult group, and that does not bode well for a Presidential candidate. Someone might ask why. Well, in this particular case, having to do with Mormonism, that’s because besides the fact that iMormonism doesn’t teach the basic, historic and foundational doctrines of Christianity — Mormonism goes further than that. It tries (in its public PR campaign) to deceive the public into thinking that they are simply “another Christian denomination” among many. And that’s where it’s totally false.
They (i.e., the Mormons) actually know this, because they’re very well aware that they do not teach the basic, historic and foundational doctrines of Christianity. In fact, they’re fairly proud of the fact that they have “restored the true Gospel” (as they would say) and that the current-day “Christian churches” are actually teaching “doctrines of man” (as opposed to those from god [again, as they want to put it]).
However, they don’t make that clear “up front” — but rather, want to have the general public think that they are really teaching Christianity. What it turns out to be is so far from — and deviant from Christianity, that it’s *totally unrecognizable* (at all) from Christianity.
An example of how “many more words” can illustrate the facts of the matter, much better than a “sound bite” can — is the following. I supply a few examples of how *deviant* Mormonism is from basic, historic and foundational Christianity. [I supplied it elsewhere, but not on this thread; and I include it here for the benefit of the many readers...]
—
One example is one teaching (from Mormonism) — that Satan is the spirit brother of Jesus. That is easily verified by anyone who wants to check it out. Christian teaching and doctrine totally *rejects* that (as the Bible teaches something *totally different*). However Mormons teach (and assert) that it is true (i.e., that Jesus is the spirit brother of Satan).
Christianity teaches and has for its doctrines that Satan was created an angel — while Jesus (as the Son of God, and one part of the Trinity) was never created or born, in His divine nature. He (Jesus) is a being that is *not* (and never was) in the same class, status or being as Satan, because Satan had a “beginning” and Jesus, as the Son of God, never had a beginning, was never born, and has always been the same uncaused and forever-existent being, and one part of the Trinity, existing outside of time and matter.
In fact, Christianity teaches that Jesus, in his forever-pre-existent divine nature, existing before the creation of the world and universe and before “time and matter”, as the uncaused being, one part of the Trinity — was the one who actually “created” Satan, as an angel, in the beginning. Thus, Jesus in his divine nature is the uncaused and forever-pre-existent being of the Trinity — and He created Satan, who (himself) “had a beginning”.
Thus, Satan and Jesus are not even related in the *least* (not even in the slightest degree), either here (or “there”) or in this time frame or in any time frame, in the past or at any point in time.
Another example of the deviant teachings and doctrines of Mormon is regarding God, the Father. They say he has the appearance of a man (you know..., like two arms, two legs, a body, head, fingers, etc... [all the stuff that a man has]).
And, Christianity *rejects* that as not taught from the Bible, and is a *deviant* teaching — totally in opposition to what Christianity teaches. Christianity teaches that God the Father is not like a man, but is spirit only, *not* having the appearance of a man (or the various and miscellaneous body parts of a man). And Christianity teaches (and has for its foundational doctrines) that God the Father has *never been a man* at any time.
Only Jesus (as one part of the Trinity), in the “incarnation” took on the form of a man, in full conjunction with His diving nature (that divine nature that was never born, never “caused, never having a beginning, being forever *self-existent*).
The “human nature” of Jesus, in His “incarnation” was born, and thus, Jesus, is both fully divine (having always pre-existed — and — was born (had a “beginning”), in the incarnation (in His human form) — both natures being fully integrated, and not diminished one with the other. This is Christian teaching and doctrine and Christianity totally rejects Mormon teaching.
And thus, with this doctrine and teaching, which is not dependent on either you or me — we find that Christianity finds Mormon teaching and doctrine totally *deviant* from what Christianity teaches and what Christianity has for doctrines.
AND, another *deviant teaching* is that we find that Mormons teach that God the Father had sexual relations with Mary — and “additionally” that Mary was the *wife* of God the Father — and she conceived in the normal manner as she would with any man (in the same manner it would happen “as if” another man had sexual relations with her).
We see a quote from Mormon teachings... “The fleshly body of Jesus required a Mother as well as a Father. Therefore, the Father and Mother of Jesus, according to the flesh, must have been associated in the capacity of husband and wife; hence the Virgin Mary must have been, for the time being, the lawful wife of God the Father: we use the term lawful wife, because it would be blasphemous in the highest degree to say that He overshadowed her or begat the Savior unlawfully........He had a lawful right to overshadow the Virgin Mary IN THE CAPACITY OF A HUSBAND, and beget a Son.......Whether God the Father gave Mary to Joseph for time only, or for time and eternity, we are not informed. It may be that He only gave her to be the wife of Joseph while in this mortal state, and that He intended after the resurrection to again take her as one of his own wives to raise up immortal spirits in eternity.”
Apostle Orson Pratt, “The Seer,” Oct. 1853, p. 158).
THEREFORE, with *many words* (yes, indeed, many words to your few words — without a doubt) — we are able to *demonstrate* that the Mormon teachings and doctrines (of just the examples mentioned here) are *deviant* from the basic, historic and foundational teachings and doctrines of Christianity.
Now — you say that the “fewer words” the better. WELL..., that is *very true* for someone who wants to *deceive the public*. The fewer words serves that purpose very well. You can’t examine anything; you can’t discuss anything; you’re left with questions and no answers.... LOL...
So, sure — for you — the fewer words spoken about the deviant doctrines of Mormonism *is better* — without a doubt.
BUT, for Christians, who are maintaining the true doctrines of the basic, historic and foundational faith of Christianity, given from the time of the Apostles — the more words are better. They make people realize that — yes indeed — Mormonism does teach deviant doctrines from Christianity and that it’s totally unrecognizable as any form of Christianity.
Regards,
Star Traveler
Hi Jo..., you were saying — “I’d say that you have done your job of sounding the warning. Well done good and faithful servant.”
Yes.., that’s about as far as someone can go. Certainly Christians are not like the Muslims, in that they’re going to cut off your head, if you don’t agree with them and do not convert to their religion. At the very least, Christians are like God, the Father, in that He gives everyone their free-will choice and does not force anyone.
It’s clear that there will always be those who reject God’s word, despite God’s long-suffering patience and His imploring those to not ignore their imminent fate without Christ as their Savior. And for those who do that, and are subject to the “second death” (of Revelation 20, at the Great White Throne) — we are actually grieved. Yes..., grieved.
That’s because for every one of those people who do reject the free gift of God, in the way of His Son, Jesus, the Messiah of Israel — they are either someone’s son, or father, or daughter or mother or close friend. It does grieve people. It also grieves God.
Many people may think this is merely a game of “my god is better than your god”, and ignore it. But, no..., it’s a matter of “life or death” and the eternal destiny of one’s soul and their forever-after existence. That’s why so many Christians are *so insistent* on the matter. They know the ultimate consequences. And that insistence does “put off” a lot of people. But, Christians persevere, because the stakes are *quite high*. It’s someone’s life that is at stake. It’s worth the aggravation of a lot of people for the sake of those few who do finally realize the importance of what God has done, though His Son, Jesus, the Messiah of Israel.
At some point, it does get to the point of “beating a dead horse” — and in more ways than one, that person is going to be a “dead horse.” And — even God — at some point, does *give up* on a person. The Bible tells us that He basically lets the person have his own way and leaves him to his own devices and that’s it.
The message never gets old (the message of salvation from the Bible), but for one individual or another, it may be the “end of the road” as nothing in this world will dissuade them from rushing headlong into destruction and their own personal damnation (at their own hands, basically). And there’s nothing that any of us can do about it.
That’s the nature of many of these kinds of conversations. We can only hope that there are many others who see it differently, compared to another who chooses his own personal destruction.
—
As a side note, Jo..., do you know where the term “Son of Man” comes from. Yes, Jesus used it several times in reference to Himself, but the people of Israel knew that it had a particular meaning. And Jesus used it in reference to Himself (as a fulfillment of prophecy about Himself). There was a book that was considered either authoritative and/or prophetic (at the time [and before] of Jesus). We no longer have that book fully or completely available to us, and neither is it in our canon of Scripture today (for whatever reasons that God chose that to be...). However, that book (for the Jews) was absolutely filled with references to the “Son of Man” which Jesus obviously used to point to Himself, as a fulfillment of what the book was saying. The people of that day had an understanding of what that “Son of Man” meant and thus, Jesus said that was Him.
That book is the Book of Enoch. If you get a chance to look through it sometime, it’s very interesting. We can’t use it as Scripture, because it’s not part of the canon that was passed on down to us, today. But, it does form a historical backdrop for understanding what Jesus was saying about Himself. It can put Jesus’ words into better context than we would have otherwise.
Anyway, I just thought that I would mention that. [And no..., lest anyone think that I would claim any connection or relation to “messiah-ship” { LOL... ]}that’s definitely not the case..., just through I better put in that qualifier there...]
Hey, don’t include me in that. I think Mormons are totally deceived by a false prophet, a lying demon and a made-up book.
Don't presume to get into a Bible quoting contest, please. It's demeaning and silly. Instead, let me quote Led Zepplin: I'm so happy you have a "Stairway to Heaven."
As for me, I know I'll hear, "Well done . . . ."
You were saying — “As for me, I know I’ll hear, “Well done . . . .”
I hope you’re not intending on hearing that phrase from Joseph Smith. I’m afraid, with the doctrines that he taught and the millions of people that he’s misled, he’s going to be in the wrong place... LOL...
But, if you’re intending on hearing that from Jesus, the Messiah of Israel, the One who is part of the Trinity, having always been pre-existent and having always with the Father, even before the creation of anything or of even mankind — I hope you don’t expect to find Joseph Smith, there in that company. Joseph Smith will be sent off to that place spoken about in Revelation 20, at the Great White Throne Judgement and cast into the lake of fire.
In any case, I wouldn’t desire to be in the same location as Joseph Smith. He and that angel he listened to will be discussing what went wrong — for eternity... :-)
Regards,
Star Traveler
You said (to Jo...) — “Hey, don’t include me in that. I think Mormons are totally deceived by a false prophet, a lying demon and a made-up book.”
Well, I know (according to what LS said about fewer words) that LS will consider your words definitely *more true* than mine. And that’s good — because LS needs to realize what you say is true.
I’m just glad that you’re able to meet LS’s definition of truth, by saying it in fewer words... :-)
Regards,
Star Traveler
You said — “I always like it when people hear directly from God as to how to instruct OTHER people.”
Well, that’s one nice thing about it — Christians do have God’s direct word on the matter. He’s given it to us, for the encouragement, correction, reproof and instruction of each other. Thank goodness for that...
2 Timothy 3:16-17
16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness,
17 that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.
He has equipped all of us Christians for that good work that He intends for each one of us.
Regards,
Star Traveler
P.S. — Let me give you an indication of what the (”real”) Christian community (at large) says about God’s word. Take a look at the Chicago Statement on Biblical Inerrancy. Christians have the utmost confidence in His word...
http://www.bible-researcher.com/chicago1.html
http://www.bible-researcher.com/chicago2.html
http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Chicago_Statement_on_Biblical_Inerrancy
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