Disquiet over schools' moment of silence

LA Times ^ | December 24, 2007 | P.J. Huffstutter

[wintertime]

When high school freshman Dawn Sherman learned that Illinois had a new law requiring public schools to provide a moment of silence each day for "reflection and student prayer," she was outraged.

Not because the law meant lost learning time in her honors math class -- which would be 15 seconds shorter -- but because "it was clear that we're supposed to sit and pray, or sit and watch other people pray," said Dawn, who is an atheist.

Along with her father, Rob, the Buffalo Grove High student has filed a lawsuit challenging the constitutionality of the law, which some Illinois school boards have raced to embrace and others have defied.

"I don't go to school to talk to God," she said. "I'm in school to learn."

The debate reflects a long-standing national fight over school prayer. The Supreme Court in 1962 ruled that official sponsorship or endorsement of prayer in schools is a violation of the 1st Amendment. Over time, state lawmakers found they were allowed to require moments of silence as long as students were not forced or encouraged to pray.

But there were limits: In the mid-1980s, an Alabama mandatory "moment of silence" law was found unconstitutional by the high court because "there was a clear legislative record that they were trying to advocate getting prayer back into schools," said Charles C. Haynes, a senior scholar at the First Amendment Center in Washington.

(snip)

According to the National Conference of State Legislatures, Alabama, Georgia, Louisiana, Massachusetts, Nevada, New Hampshire, Oklahoma, Rhode Island, South Carolina, Tennessee, Texas and Virginia also require such moments of quiet in the classroom. In more than 20 other states, teachers are allowed to decide whether they want such a classroom time-out.

[Bloody Sam Roberts]

The way to teach others to get along is not by “shutting their pie hole” about their religious beliefs.

It is not the responsibility of the other students to teach this girl.
It is her responsibility to learn. And judging by her comments on the subject at hand, I say she has failed.

[wintertime]

It is her responsibility to learn. And judging by her comments on the subject at hand, I say she has failed.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

This is a Catch 22 situation. Only one side can win this. One side will have their “pie hole” shut. ( as you would phrase it.)

This is why government schools are a freedom of conscience and First Amendment nightmare!

[wintertime]

Is this thread a topic for the Public School Ping list?

[Amelia]

I don’t suppose you think it’s a personal attack to accuse all Christian public school teachers, including those on this forum and the friends and relatives of those on this forum, of being prostitutes and whores?

[M0sby]

Hi Metmom!
First of all..
Let me say thank you to you for your work on these various lists!
There are so many articles which I find informative and the many curriculum ideas I’ve garnered from you and the other highly involved parents have been so HELPFUL!
:-)
Now, this particular thread doesn’t seem to match the issue I think you are asking about.
But, I understand your point and I would say that your judgment (regarding the sex issue and any other issue) is good enough for me.
If there comes a time when it isn’t, I guess I will be asked to be removed.

Thank you again for your efforts!

Respectfully,

Mosby

[metmom]

You’re right.

>bangs head on desk<

There’s another thread running about a teacher who was involved with a student of his and I really meant to ping that one. I think I will. This moment of silence one is a whole different topic and I certainly would ping that one. I’ll repost this comment on the other thread and have the mods pull the comment from this thread.

[metmom]

Dang, yes it is. I got the wrong thread. Too many tabs open.

*sigh*

[bannie]

I don’t suppose you think it’s a personal attack to accuse all Christian public school teachers, including those on this forum and the friends and relatives of those on this forum, of being prostitutes and whores?

Amelia, this person's agenda is not to promote home schooling: It is to take out some deep-seeded hatred for teachers on anyone she can corner.

I'm not sure what it was, but something has made her feel inferior; and she has decided to handle it this way.

On the up side: She's easy to ignore.

[petitfour]

Don’t forget “so called Christians” as if they are not really Christians because they just couldn’t work in a godless environment AND live the Great Commission at the same time.

[petitfour]

After talking with my husband, he wanted me to ask you:

“Are you ready?”

[metmom]

II Kings 5 is the account where Nahum is cured of leprosy. I find the following conversation between Nahum and Elisha very interesting.

17 Naaman said, "If not, please let your servant at least be given two mules' load of earth; for your servant will no longer offer burnt offering nor will he sacrifice to other gods, but to the LORD.

18 "In this matter may the LORD pardon your servant: when my master goes into the house of Rimmon to worship there, and he leans on my hand and I bow myself in the house of Rimmon, when I bow myself in the house of Rimmon, the LORD pardon your servant in this matter."

19 He said to him, "Go in peace." So he departed from him some distance.

If God calls someone to do a job, He knows what they're up against and it's Him they answer to.

Even after 12 years of homeschooling, I saw that there's an awful lot of teaching that can go on that doesn't require one to compromise their faith and lie to teach.

Those accusations about prostituting themselves can be made about a whole host of professions. What about doctors? Are they lying and deceitful to their patients for practicing medicine instead of encouraging people to pray?

Or lawyers? Should we have no Christian lawyers because sometimes they are required by the court to defend someone guilty of a crime?

Or bankers, just because sometimes the institution they are employed by does somewhat unethical but not illegal things regarding loans and mortgages?

Are all these people and more guilty of participating in the crimes of their compatriots?

Christians are needed in all walks of life and I believe that a teacher can do a pretty darned good job of being a testimony in the public schools, not only with the students but other teachers and administrators. They do have a lot of leeway in their classrooms and are not completely bound in what they can teach and discuss.

I have no stake in the teacher discussions, but I really find this last post offensive. It's way over the line in what is good FReeper etiquette and at the rate you're going, you're going to find yourself with FR's version of the blue screen of death.

[wintertime]

You are right about the post being in poor taste. I have asked the moderator to remove it.

I do disagree with somewhat about other professions. Other professions are not in the business of educating children. The very nature of educating children is highly moral and ethical in nature and can never be religiously neutral.

I still contend that by agreeing to cooperate with the religious agenda of the government school, that in the long run fewer people will come to Christ than if they would choose not to work in these places.

[metmom]

Public Education Ping

This list is for articles relating to public education. mcvey and republican professor have asked me to take over the list. If you want on or off this ping list, please FReepmail me.

[AliVeritas]

Tell the atheist to think of it as Study Hall... or the thoughts of Darwin, Marx, Mao or detention if it helps. /s

Next they’ll say it’s worship of the dead when you have a moment of silence re: school shootings?

[GingisK]

I agree that religious matters are best left out of public school. In fact, I was very pleased when Kentucky abandon their practice of "devotion" since most of the kids made a mockery of it. I was Lutheran while most of them were Baptist, so their dogma didn't mix with mine.

I am not a teacher, nor do I work for the government in any capacity. I'm an old fart who has watched tolerance drain out of American society over the last thirty years. There seems to be protests about everything, and the tiny minorities seem to spoil all there is about this society.

By the way, chaos already reigns in public schools. The forms of intolerance even call for children to be arrested for use of proper utensils while eating.

My only concern is the militant intolerance. Now the government is displaying the same even though it is explicitly forbidden to rule one way or the other. The Pilgrims came to this land seeking religious freedom. They didn't find it here in the long run, did they?

You are especially right about one thing: the government aught to get out of the school business.

I am taking issue only with the rules that government entities are enforcing, when the citizens themselves should be practicing tolerance and understanding. This should even extend to Christians keeping their religion in their homes and in their churches and out of public schools. The "other brands" really aught to be more accommodating to the Christians ... but they all make asses of themselves. The star asses are all in government employ since they have been explicitly prohibited from ruling either way.