Posted on 12/24/2007 6:18:30 AM PST by wintertime
When high school freshman Dawn Sherman learned that Illinois had a new law requiring public schools to provide a moment of silence each day for "reflection and student prayer," she was outraged.
Not because the law meant lost learning time in her honors math class -- which would be 15 seconds shorter -- but because "it was clear that we're supposed to sit and pray, or sit and watch other people pray," said Dawn, who is an atheist.
Along with her father, Rob, the Buffalo Grove High student has filed a lawsuit challenging the constitutionality of the law, which some Illinois school boards have raced to embrace and others have defied.
"I don't go to school to talk to God," she said. "I'm in school to learn."
The debate reflects a long-standing national fight over school prayer. The Supreme Court in 1962 ruled that official sponsorship or endorsement of prayer in schools is a violation of the 1st Amendment. Over time, state lawmakers found they were allowed to require moments of silence as long as students were not forced or encouraged to pray.
But there were limits: In the mid-1980s, an Alabama mandatory "moment of silence" law was found unconstitutional by the high court because "there was a clear legislative record that they were trying to advocate getting prayer back into schools," said Charles C. Haynes, a senior scholar at the First Amendment Center in Washington.
(snip)
According to the National Conference of State Legislatures, Alabama, Georgia, Louisiana, Massachusetts, Nevada, New Hampshire, Oklahoma, Rhode Island, South Carolina, Tennessee, Texas and Virginia also require such moments of quiet in the classroom. In more than 20 other states, teachers are allowed to decide whether they want such a classroom time-out.
(Excerpt) Read more at latimes.com ...
Prayer and religious references were removed from schools because of lawsuits from atheist parents like Madeline Murray O'Hare and the father in this article, not because most public teachers are atheists.
One of my own elementary school teachers was sued by similar parents because our community continued to begin school with a Bible story and the Lord's Prayer even after Ms. O'Hare won her case. The parents were newcomers to the community, the majority of the community as well as the school administration supported the teacher, but that case was lost as well.
Defending against lawsuits such as these is not cheap, and to pay for them, schools have to use taxpayer dollars that were meant for educating students - it is small wonder to me that they try to avoid the necessity of such lawsuits.
In any event, I can't see why schools get blamed when they are, in fact, the victims here.
Finally, as the professional that I know you are, I know that you would never give half the argument to your students. They are, after all, emotionally immature, and unsophisticated in the finer points of debating techniques.
wintertime, you've overused this line, and it's turning into spam. You seem to try to address it to a public school teacher at least once on each school thread you post on. Could you maybe delete it from your cut-and-paste repertoire and find something new?
First, we're all presumed to be knowledgeable, intelligent adults here, and I think most of us would be insulted if we were treated as children by our fellow posters.
Secondly, your verbiage is simply another way of implying that teachers - including, and perhaps especially, those on this board - are abusive and cruel to children, as well as deceitful and dishonest.
How many creative ways can I point out the ***same*** flawed debating tactic, as see ( this time) specifically in post #26!!!!???
When this flawed debating technique is seen on the posting boards, I **do** wonder, if it is used off of the message boards as well.... However...Government teachers are professionals, and a professional would never withhold half the evidence from their students? I have full confidence that some of the debating techniques used on this board are not occurring in the classroom! !
If that is spam,,,,then report me!!
Secondly, your verbiage is simply another way of implying that teachers - including, and perhaps especially, those on this board - are abusive and cruel to children, as well as deceitful and dishonest.
My remarks about government schooling, teachers in these schools, and curriculum and policies are:
1) Extremely global in nature and address the entire issue of government education in the U.S.
2) Or,,,they specifically address the behavior of specific teachers in specific ***news articles*** posted on this board.
3) This particular thread is about the conflict that all Christian teachers in the U.S. have with aligning their Christian belief system with a government curriculum found throughout the U.S. that is officially ( through court rulings) non-religious.
4) This thread is also specifically about a 15 second moment of silence in a specific school unrelated to any poster ( I hope) on this board.
5) As for "verbiage": What sort of verbiage should be used when it comes to rape, sexual abuse, illiteracy and innumeracy, bullying, huge high school drop out rates, unsafe conditions, neglect, political correctness run amok, anti-Chrisitian practices and teachings in the schools, our current philosophies regarding sex education, official NEA policies, unsafe school buses, etc? What words can we use for the teachers and school bureaucrats in the schools in these news articles who do this, abet it, ignore it, or are oblivious to it? Personally, I think my "verbiage" regarding these issues is too mild.
If any criticism of the government schools is seen as a personal attack then that would effectively shut down ALL discussion about the many deficiencies of government schooling.
Please read message #62. Your post #26 is mentioned, and I forgot to ping you.
They are getting blamed because they are in a Catch 22 situation. It is impossible to respect the First Amendment Rights of the atheists who do not want a moment of silence, and the religious students who do. There are free speech, free association, and free expression of religion issues that are complete conflict with one another.
Prayer and religious references were removed from schools because of lawsuits from atheist parents like Madeline Murray O'Hare and the father in this article, not because most public teachers are atheists.
No one on this board has said that "most public (school) teachers are atheists". This is a strawman argument. I can not argue against an argument of your creation.
Personally, I believe that it is likely most government teachers are Christian. Hey! Surveys show that most U.S. citizens are Christian. I don't think the population of government school teachers would be less Christian.
I argue that Christian teachers should seriously consider abandoning the government schools. If they did so massively, a crisis would indeed develop. I don't think that would be bad. It would force complete structural change.
One of my own elementary school teachers was sued by similar parents because our community continued to begin school with a Bible story and the Lord's Prayer even after Ms. O'Hare won her case. The parents were newcomers to the community, the majority of the community as well as the school administration supported the teacher, but that case was lost as well..
This was bound to occur eventually. Even if government school districts were the size of a suburban subdivision block, it would be impossible for any government school to fully support and recognize all the competing religious worldviews found among the families of that small block. No matter what the school bureaucrats decides, the school would establish the religious worldview of some and trash that of others.
Also, government schools are compulsory. Many students are there because their parents can not afford to ransom them by paying extra in private or home school expenses. That means the student is a captive audience. They will be subjected to what ever the government dishes out to them in the government school. And,,..What the government teaches is not ( and can never be) religiously neutral!
Defending against lawsuits such as these is not cheap, and to pay for them, schools have to use taxpayer dollars that were meant for educating students - it is small wonder to me that they try to avoid the necessity of such lawsuits..
It is my hope that lawsuits such as this will finally bankrupt the districts, cause a massive school tax revolt, and finally shut these First Amendment and freedom of conscience monstrosities down.
In any event, I can't see why schools get blamed when they are, in fact, the victims here..
I am in agreement with you here. Government schools shouldn't be blamed. What people can't see is that government schools and the First Amendment are incompatible. It can not be fixed because it is axiomatic.
I hope the other students youtube the crap out of miss teenybitcher, ridicule her, embarass her, humiliate her, and help her understand that the constitutional right to free speech can be used in a mean way, just as her right to protest a mere moment of silence can be used in a mean way. She may make a great mathemetician, but she has already proven to be not worth a crap as a human being, and probably never will be.
85% of people educated in public schools “abandon the faith” within two years of graduation? Where did you get this statistic?
True enough. My bad.
Tolerance of one's fellow citizens stems from gentlemanly behavior and other roots of good citizenship.
I pondered this awhile, and then recovered my frame of mind when I misspoke: The First Ammendment demands tolerance with repect to the government's view of the citizens. It can make no law FOR or AGAINST any religeon. So, the mandate of that ammendment is applied strictly to the government or any arm of the government. It follows, therefore, that public schools are not free to dictate matters or practices of relgeon. Naturally, citizens should be free to regard religeon as they please, even while at school.
Tolerance of the beliefs held by fellow citizens is merely good citizenship. It is certainly not mandated. What would be mandated is protection against practices by persons of any faith, or non-faith, upon anyone else. This includes mandates placed by athiests on those of faith and vice-versa.
“so-called Christian teachers “
I suggest you find a strong Christian and discuss this phrase and the danger of persecuting Christians who are fulfilling their calling by teaching in public schools.
I never had a moment of silence mandated for anything when I was in public schools. It never stopped me, my friends, or my “so called Christian” teachers from praying. Never.
GingisK, the specific stats can be found toward the bottom of the page. They are part of Dr. Bruce Shortt’s resolution to the Southern Baptists Convention. Given the venue I would expect that Bruce Shortt would have been very careful to have correct information.
If the little brat would shut her pie hole and open her eyes, she'd learn a hell of a lesson.
GingisK, are you a teacher in a government school? Just curious.
If government schools were to allow free expression of religion then:
1) Chaos would reign.
2) There is a conflict with our First Amendment Right to free association, because there are lots of students who do not want to be subjected to people expressing their brand of religion. In all government schools it is the government who dictates with whom the student will or will not associate.
3) There would be a conflict with the First Amendment Right against the government establishing religion. The kids are in the build by government decree, and, if they refuse, they and/or their parents will be sent to prison. If they are in a government building they would unavoidably be subjected to the proselytizing of other students and ( possibly) teachers.
Can you see? Government schools and the First Amendment are incompatible. It is axiomatic.
What would be mandated is protection against practices by persons of any faith, or non-faith, upon anyone else
In the private, non-government world, people restrict free speech, free association, and free expression of religion all the time! For example, restaurants, private schools, barber shops, dental offices, Mc Donalds. This is entirely acceptable because people freely and privately agree to these restrictions.
The First Amendment exists to protect us from the **government**, not from each other in private and voluntary interactions.
If 85% of public school educated citizens abandon the faith within two years of graduation, then why does 85% of the population claim to be Christian?
I left the SBC within a year of my high school graduation. I guess I’m a statistic. But I remained Christian. My brother quit attending church regularly after his graduation, and then he married and moved to another denomination. Still Christian. Another brother quit attending church regularly until he decided to get married. Then his betrothed became a Christian, and they went on from there. I realize this is anecdotal, but I could list my friends through my senior year in high school, and we would find them to have had a few years of no church attendance and then to have renewed their faith. I don’t think their government school years played a role. I could list my friends who went to Catholic and/or private schools and show the same results.
Wow! What a good reason for Christians to abandon the government schools!
Ok...Let’s say someone does “shut her pie hole”. Do you think that later in her adult life she would be willing to listen to a Christian missionary? Would this missionary’s job be harder or easier? Answer: Harder!
Yet,,,Why should Christians be frustrated in their First Amendment Right to proclaim ( aloud or silently) their faith? Answer: They shouldn’t, and resentment is bound to leach out. Your statement is a perfect example.
The solution is for Christians to abandon the schools ( This includes Christian teachers ) and to work like crazy to shut all government schools down. What is needed is a completely private system of universal K-12 education.
Government schools and the First Amendment are completely incompatible! There is no way for any government school to be religiously neutral.
My statement had absolutely nothing to do with religion.
It had everything to do with learning from others, getting along with people in general and that fact that we learn nothing while we are speaking.
I didn't think it would be necessary to explain that. I was wrong.
I strong suggest that Christian teachers re-evalute their "calling". When God and His Son Jesus are scrubbed from the the curriculum and textbooks then this is not religiously neutral. Education is one or the other. It on side of the fence with Jesus, or it is on the side against Jesus. It is also not what the Christian teacher KNOWS to be the complete truth.
What are Christian teachers doing every day?
Are they praying to God and asking Him to help them teach half the truth?
Are they praying for help in promoting the anti-god religious philosophy of the government school?
Are they asking for extra grace to help them be sneaky and sly so they squeeze a grain of Christianity into the lesson plan.
Or...Are they asking God to help them be lukewarm in proclaiming the gospel so they can prostitute themselves for their paycheck?
Personally, I think these teachers are making it harder for real missionaries that their students may meet later in their adult lives. What former government school students will have learned from their Christian teachers is that Christians are sly, sneaky, lukewarm, weak, wimpy, and will sell their souls and an anti-god worldview for a paycheck.
I never had a moment of silence mandated for anything when I was in public schools. It never stopped me, my friends, or my “so called Christian” teachers from praying. Never.
The readers on this board know that free speech of all kinds ( especially religious speech), free press, ( especially about religion), free expression of religion, and free association, are all tightly controlled in the government schools.
If a parent can not afford to ransom their child by paying private or home school expenses, then that parent must make "Sophie's Choice": government indoctrination camp ( mis-named "school") or prison. If he is sufficiently resistant armed police will kill him. Just ask John Singer.
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You beat the odds. People beat the odds playing Russian Roulette too, but I wouldn’t recommend it.
When parents send their kids to government schools they are playing Russian Roulette with their child’s eternal soul.
It had everything to do with learning from others, getting along with people in general and that fact that we learn nothing while we are speaking.
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I don’t agree with you. The way to teach others to get along is not by “shutting their pie hole” about their religious beliefs.
The solution: Begin the process of privatizing universal K-12 education.
1) Get your own kids out! Encourage your friends to do the same.
2) Don’t work for a government school, and encourage friends not to either.
3) Organize a massive school tax revolt.
4) Build up a system of private schools and private scholarship foundations. If Harvard can have a 35$ billion dollar endowment ( with a “B”), then Christians could do the same, if they wanted.
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