"The birth of our Savior was as natural as are the births of our children; it was the result of NATURAL ACTION. He partook of FLESH AND BLOOD--was begotten of his father, as we were of our fathers." ( Journal of Discourses, vol. 8, p. 115).
And if you keep reading, he talks about the Virgin birth.
Apparently, I must make it simple for you, we can Via Artificial insemination create a virgin birth today.
A man who fathers a child through artificial insemination is just as much the father of that Child as I am of mine which were fathered the "normal" way.
Jesus was Fathered by God thought the action of the Holy Ghost which over shadowed Mary (and we don't know the details, and I personally don't care) There was no Sex. Mormons have never used the word sex to describe what happened between the Holy Ghost and Mary, or God and Mary, etc, it is only those with a dirty mind who went there, I am sorry they have infected you with that image, stop spreading it, it's not true.
I know for a fact that you can not prove that from the Christian Scriptures. But I would welcome the opportunity to discuss it with you.
This should be fun.
God is the Father of All spirits.
Hebrews 12:9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?
The Devil/Satan/Lucifer is a spirit.
Luke 9: 42 And as he was yet a coming, the devil threw him down, and tare him. And Jesus rebuked the unclean spirit, and healed the child, and delivered him again to his father.
Jesus Christ is the son of God.
John 1:34 And I saw, and bare record that this is the Son of God.
So if your father has another male child, is this child of your father not your Brother?
Mormons believe this because it is in the Bible, we do not believe Satan has any special relationship with Jesus that we do not also possess (having spirits we are also God's children.
John 20: 17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.
Note that none of this makes any sense to someone who believes the trinity for their basic understanding of God is wrong and that is why Joseph smith was told the other Christian churches were teaching abominations.
Go ahead now, wrest the scriptures to find a way out of what they clearly say.
It may not be significant to you, but it is very significant to Christians.
By your private definition of Christians?
This is because it touches on the primary question of the New Testament, namely, Who is Jesus. Is he, as Mormons claim, a man who evolves into God (like all men can), or is he the unique, eternal God in the form of a man?
This is an important question, but people who believe on both sides are Christian, it's not your fault you were taught a dogma that conceals rather than reveals truth, and I am sure God will not hold it against you because of your ignorance, however, he will not reward you for being ignorant of him either.
What you find to be an "obscure doctrine" is central to all Christian belief.
Really? I thought Jesus Being the savior was central, oh, silly me. </sarc>
Have you considered the idea that it is shocking, not because it is misrepresented by others, but because, to anyone familiar with the Scriptures it is, in fact, shocking?
Yes, I have considered that, for all the time it deserved. Perceptions are not reality no matter how much you want yours to be.
This evidences a misunderstanding. The New Testament is full of example of people addressing and correcting error.
As I am addressing and Correcting you, however, I have never questioned your Faith, you have questioned mine, and that is unChristlike.
Paul got HOT about people who were trying to change or diminish the person or work of Jesus Christ.
Yep, he did, so? You are not an apostle of Jesus Christ, you are a believer on him. There is a difference, and apostle is called to the work by the laying on of hands by those in authority, just like happened in the Bible after Jesus left.
I have often thought the saying should be What Would Jesus Have Me Do, not What Would Jesus Do, for I am not him and what he would do and what I he would want me to do are different things. (prospective again)
Exposing erroneous beliefs is not unChristlike.
Nice double negative. Questioning another's belief in Jesus is unChristlike. If you want to correct belief, first accept what is correct, then talk about errors. For example, I was perfectly willing earlier in this post to point out scriptures that explain how Jesus and Lucifer are indeed brothers after a sense of the word. you asked. We Mormons often feel that your side has just told us we are not Christians so we have nothing to talk about. show me where Jesus said to do that.
While you are at it explain how a God who cannot lie deceives by appearing to Stephen as two people, and is continually talking about himself in the third person. Why would a God who is here to teach us about himself mislead like that?
Why doesn't the word Trinity appear in the Bible and the Word Godhead Does? (Godhead used to mean God the father, Christ and the Holy Ghost as separate entities) Arius was excommunicated for believing what we do about the Time of Nicea, Earlier, Hyppolytus taught it as church doctrine and refuted the theory that God and Christ were the same being. The evidence is clear for anyone who wants to look at the facts of history, that the "Christian" understanding of God has changed since the twelve apostles walked the earth.
DelphiUser, were you raised Mormon or did you convert from another set of beliefs?
The Short answer is yes. (Chuckle)
I was born within a year of my Mom and Dad Joining, so they were still learning about being a Mormon. I bear the names of the Two missionaries who baptized them. I also grew up in the Midwest with few or No Mormons in the towns we lived in. I had friends from many religions, and attended with them. I can count among my friends and relatives, Methodists, Calvinists, Pentecostals, Catholics, Atheists, RLDS, FLDS, and some Buddhists, nad more if I think about it, I have enjoyed religious discussions with all of them and consider all, but the atheist and Buddhists Christians, just like me. I even Graduated from a Buddhist Monastery while in Taiwan on my mission there. You could say that I have exposed myself to every religion I could, I enjoy studying religion, it fascinates me. The only thing I don't like about most religions is how people tend to try to force every body to share their faith because of their testimony. That's yours, it may not suit me any more than my glasses would suit you.
One of the things Chinese people would say that would frustrate most Missionaries to death was "All churches Teach people to do good, right?" (with the inference being that they are all therefore the same.) I could have a fun and educational discussion from there, but some of my my companions would want to run screaming from the room in frustration.
I'm curious, why did you ask the question, What bearing does it have on my beliefs now?
"Jesus was Fathered by God thought the action of the Holy Ghost which over shadowed Mary (and we don't know the details, and I personally don't care) There was no Sex."
Do you accept the information on this page?
http://www.mormonwiki.org/Conception_of_Jesus#_note-0
Bruce McConkie taught::
"These name-titles all signify that our Lord is the only Son of the Father in the flesh. Each of the words is to be understood
literally. Only means only; Begotten means begotten; and Son means son. Christ was begotten by an Immortal Father
in the same way that mortal men are begotten by mortal fathers." (
Mormon Doctrine, 1979, pages 546-47) Again:
"God the Father is a perfected, glorified, holy Man, an immortal Personage. And Christ was born into the world as the literal Son of this Holy Being; he was born in the same personal, real, and literal sense that any mortal son is born to a mortal father. There is nothing figurative about his paternity;
he was begotten, conceived and born in the normal and natural course of events, for he is the Son of God, and that designation means what it says." (Ibid., page 742)
further in the article ...
"Whether the conception of Jesus physically took place can be categorized as a
disputed doctrine. Modern Mormons either take the position of, "it's possible, I don't know", or deny that it was taught, and/or deny the possibility of anything other than a genuine virgin birth. "
So as of today, it is a disputed doctrine - some Mormons do believe it, some don't.
This should be fun.God is the Father of All spirits.Hebrews 12:9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?
I think the best possible way I could answer this argument is to quote the first chapter of Hebrews:
"Long ago, at many times and in many ways, God spoke to our fathers by the prophets, but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed the heir of all things, through whom also he created the world. He is the radiance of the glory of God and the exact imprint of his nature, and he upholds the universe by the word of his power. After making purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high, having become as much superior to angels as the name he has inherited is more excellent than theirs.For to which of the angels did God ever say, "You are my Son, today I have begotten you"?
Or again, "I will be to him a father, and he shall be to me a son"?
And again, when he brings the firstborn into the world, he says, "Let all God’s angels worship him."
Of the angels he says,
"He makes his angels winds, and his ministers a flame of fire."
But of the Son he says,
"Your throne, O God, is forever and ever, the scepter of uprightness is the scepter of your kingdom. You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness; therefore God, your God, has anointed you with the oil of gladness beyond your companions."
And, "You, Lord, laid the foundation of the earth in the beginning, and the heavens are the work of your hands; they will perish, but you remain; they will all wear out like a garment, like a robe you will roll them up, like a garment they will be changed But you are the same, and your years will have no end."
And to which of the angels has he ever said,
"Sit at my right hand until I make your enemies a footstool for your feet"?
Are they not all ministering spirits sent out to serve for the sake of those who are to inherit salvation?
For to which of the angels did God ever say, "You are my Son, today I have begotten you"? The answer is - none of them.
The Hebrews passage refers to the universality of the Fatherhood of God in a generic sense - much like the passage in James where God is called "Father of the heavenly lights," (James 1:17) But this doesn't mean that the stars and comets are literally and physically "children" of God. Or think of when Paul addressed the Athenians and said:
"For in him we live and move and have our being.' As some of your own poets have said, 'We are his offspring.' Therefore since we are God's offspring, we should not think that the divine being is like gold or silver or stone—an image made by man's design and skill.
Paul was not saying that all human beings are the children of God, but that, being that all people came from Adam, and Adam is called a son of God (in Luke), then all people are the offspring of God. The terms "child" or "children" of God are reserved for select individuals.
Both Jesus and Paul, in several place, are explicit that not all people are "children of God".
Jesus in John 8:
"They answered him, "Abraham is our father." Jesus said to them, "If you were Abraham’s children, you would be doing the works Abraham did, but now you seek to kill me, a man who has told you the truth that I heard from God. This is not what Abraham did. You are doing the works your father did." They said to him, "We were not born of sexual immorality. We have one Father—even God." Jesus said to them, "If God were your Father, you would love me, for I came from God and I am here. I came not of my own accord, but he sent me. Why do you not understand what I say? It is because you cannot bear to hear my word. You are of your father the devil, and your will is to do your father’s desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, and has nothing to do with the truth, because there is no truth in him.When he lies, he speaks out of his own character, for he is a liar and the father of lies.
And look what Paul says in Romans 9:
"But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel, and not all are children of Abraham because they are his offspring, but "Through Isaac shall your offspring be named." This means that it is not the children of the flesh who are the children of God, but the children of the promise are counted as offspring."
But the wonderful mystery that Paul speaks to further in the chapter is that people who are not God's children can become God's children by the new birth and faith in Jesus Christ. They can be adopted into the family of God.
"Those who were not my people I will call 'my people,'
and her who was not beloved I will call 'beloved.'"
"And in the very place where it was said to them, 'You are not my people,'
there they will be called 'sons of the living God.'"
That's as far as I can get tonight. I'll have to post more tomorrow