Four People Shot Outside Colorado Springs New Life Church

Fox News ^ | 09 DEC 07 | Fox News

[aomagrat]

[I waited 45 seconds and actually posted something substantial--Ed.]

COLORADO SPRINGS, Colo. — At least four people were shot outside of a Colorado Springs church on Sunday, but it was not immediately known whether the shootings were related to an earlier shooting about 70 miles away, authorities said.

[CardCarryingMember.VastRightWC]

I still give her every benefit of the doubt I possibly can

My strong impression is that all you've given her is the debit of the doubt. But perhaps I missed some qualification of yours here or there.

Your frequently repeated references to "emotional incest" I have found particularly offensive.

[incindiary]

I have been feeling the same way... I'm honestly surprised at some of the comments here. I would expect those comments at a liberal site, but not at FR.

He made his choices. He was at the age where he was old enough to know right from wrong, but he didn't care, he wanted it his way, and he chose to rebel and reject everything... instead he chose darkness, hate, self-pity, death and destruction. He followed in the footsteps of the "god of this world" (satan), who also wanted to be "God" and rebelled.

It is very, very sad, but this sort of thing happens a lot (not mass murder, but people making their own choices to reject faith and God... and choose death over life.)

Yes, Christians fall short, and every fallible human being can be hypocritical - but as someone else already mentioned, ultimately we are not to look to other people for perfection, or to always be trustworthy, because if we do, we're always going to end up disappointed. We are to look to God. And even when things are terrible and life seems unfair... that is when faith needs to kick in, that is when our faith is really tested. We can choose to trust God, or we can choose to wallow in misery and have no faith that things will get better. Unfortunately, the shooter chose the latter. And unfortunately, he chose to take others down with him... in the same way that the original rebeller did.

[Quix]

The truth is often offensive.

[Quix]

OK, off to finish my responses on other threads and then to the review of his writings . . . till later.

[Uri’el-2012]

My understanding is

Logos is the written Word of G-d

Rhema is associated with spoken word of man i.e Kenneth Hagin etc

[the808bass]

that he had experiences so similar that the differences were inconsequential.

Bravo Sierra. I think we've defined abuse down to make everyone a victim of abuse at some point in their lives. This does a grand disservice to both real sufferers of actual abuse and gives a victimology to people who totally don't deserve it.

Can a person believe the lie that the Devil tells them? That same fundamental lie that He tricked Adam and Eve with? "Eat of the fruit and you will be like God." "God doesn't want you to have what's rightfully yours." And if a person chooses to believe that lie, through no real mental defect but simple selfishness, would that put them in much the same place as the writer/appropriator of all those hapless lyrics? Absolutely. (I answered for you.)

Let's put that into today's psychovernacular. "Eve, God doesn't want you to actualize your true self. God is oppressing your identity. If you would simply do whatever you want, whever you want, you can create your own reality. You can be a GOD." Or, "Michael, you're a victim. You've been done wrong. Take the power away from God and take it for your own. You can create your own reality of what is right and wrong. You can decide who lives and who dies. You can control those who've tried to control you."

Note that Adam and Eve didn't have any parents who screwed them up or who forced them to rebel. It was their nature. It is our nature. Left unchecked, it is a runaway freight train with predictable and tragic results.

[CardCarryingMember.VastRightWC]

Believe that if you want. But don’t try to convince me that the mere fact that he relates to someone else’s posting of some sad tale of “something awful my parents did to me” by copy/pasting that anecdote into his own postings and adding “Here! Here!” to it, is proof that his own mother must have abused him in the same way that the other poster experienced.

[CindyDawg]

Well, see I don't consider him a kid. We have no evidence that his mom was responsible for his actions. Even if she was the pits though, there comes a time when we have to accept our own actions and forgive. 24 is plenty old enough.

I'm afraid I'm a lost cause though. Psy kept me off the honor roll and almost kept me from graduating. I wasn't a..ah...team player:')

[the808bass]

HE OWNED THEM AS HIS OWN—emotionally, experientially, essentially, functionally, more or less literally.

Let me say it this way. I can "own" the persecutions of a Sudanese Christian as my own because I wore a Christian t-shirt and some people mocked me. But there is no connection in reality to me owning that persecution. I can appropriate it for my own and it tells a lot about me and how I think. It tells others nothing of what I actually suffered (almost nothing).

So, if he had an exaggerated sense of self-importance (which he did), he could see others suffering as the same as his. Equating his experiences to sexual abuse, etc. It tells us a lot about how he thinks and who he is. It tells us nothing about what he actually experienced.

[CardCarryingMember.VastRightWC]

The truth is often offensive.

And often times, offensive unfounded accusations, like Freud's cigar, are just that --- offensive unfounded accusations.

[spunkets]

"too much of a secular bias"

There's no bias there. The reality of a man's mind is real. Murray's mind was blown and needed the attention and care of a psychiatrist, as per Gen 3:19. So, I'll toss in my spiritual considerations.

"His plan failed because God had a fine tuned opponent in his way."

Murray's opponent was a man and it was a woman that stood him down according to their own choice for self protection and the protection of others, as per Gen. 3. God's plan is bigger.

Murray was a cripple, in the condition of the blind man in John 9. His affliction was that his mental capacities had been rendered rather useless. No one stood in the place of the teacher in John 9 and healed Murray, as per Gen 3 and Matt 10:8. Instead they played the role of the Pharisees in John 9 and said the man was sick from sin and was steeped in sin at birth(John 9:34). How dare you lecture us, they said to the blind man. "Are we blind too?", they said to God in John 9:40. To which God replied in John 9:41, ""If you were blind, you would not be guilty of sin; but now that you claim you can see, your guilt remains."

Murray wasn't the strong man of Luke 11:21 who could guard his own house. That house was taken over by demons. I'm sure God knew that he didn't know what he was doing.

[the808bass]

If you cannot read INTENSELY AND PERSISTENTLY PROVOKED TO WRATH in this kids writings

This assumes that his perspective is logical. I know plenty of people that I've worked with who felt intensely and persistently provoked to wrath because the boss wants them at work on time, wants them actually working when they're on the clock, wants them contributing to the final work product. I'm sure you know many people like that, too.

Now add a bit of crazy (the technical term). And mix that up with the self-importance of someone who thinks he's the smartest guy in the room. Toss in a dash of wanting to be accepted on the forum and having zero accountability for anything he said. And you'd get the same kinds of postings. And again, you'd know nothing about the referent of the posts. You'd get all kinds of interesting information on the slacker/shooter/sinner. And only a distorted picture of the referent.

[the808bass]

Logos is the written Word of G-d

Rhema is associated with spoken word of man i.e Kenneth Hagin etc

That bifurcation of the Greek is not distinguishable in Greek texts of the day, nor is it distinguishable in the contexts of the Biblical text. It is an artificial construct of some of today's questionable exegetes (and I use that term loosely).

[the808bass]

I'm sure God knew that he didn't know what he was doing.

I lack your confidence. Thankfully, neither of us has to make that call.

[Uri’el-2012]

That bifurcation of the Greek is not distinguishable in Greek texts of the day, nor is it distinguishable in the contexts of the Biblical text. It is an artificial construct of some of today's questionable exegetes (and I use that term loosely).

That is where I'm going.

I understood the family was intensely Pentecostal.

Following people like Hagin, Roberts, Copeland Haggard etc

Where the word Rhema has a different meaning from what Evangelicals understand.

More associated with hearing voices in their heads believing
it as a revelation from G-d

[Freedom'sWorthIt]

Yes, know that these types of drugs can produce the voices also.

But have personal knowledge of a young man so “possessed” or “oppressed” - spookiest thing I have ever witnessed. He was into the satanic music scene and listened for hours on end to that “death metal” music.

When he slept, he would elevate...lift his rear and back off the bed....propped up with his head and his legs....Off the bed....for a LONGGG time....as if held there. And he would be shrieking in the most horrendous sounding voice possible. Yet he never woke up or realized what he was doing. He was not on any medication at that time. Had been on ritalin earlier in his life - but not then.

That was, imho, demonic possession/oppression. His parents finally filmed it and showed it to him and he got straight really quick....scared the hummy out of him....stopped with the music immediately. (no did not get an exorcism).

He’s now married and raising a child and working (before he could not keep a job).

Certainly the demons of hell are happy to oblige by helping “troubled” people who have opened themselves up to such influences sp as to push those individuals - if the keep that door open - into self destruction and destruction of others.

[Freedom'sWorthIt]

Yes indeed. It really is the power and love of Jesus Christ which can deliver people from satanic influences if they choose to turn away from those influences or even call out for help to Him.

Sometimes it takes heavy prayer too by loved ones or those trained in spiritual warfare.

I have witnessed that kind of deliverance through prayer.

But have no idea if the person I saw who was so delivered closed those doors that were open in his life or kept them open for further troubles.....this was a one day prayer event at my mother’s home. The young man came in distraught, suicidal, his mother at her wit’s end.

He was counseled and prayed for by a Christian woman who knew how to pray in such situations. The young man was IMMEDIATELY delivered, his face which had been dark and despairing, changed instantly to a face full of light and joy and tears of new found freedom!!! He lost all desire for suicide or even a sense of depression.

I know this happened. I was in the house at the time...but not in the room where this person was being prayed for.

But parents do the best they can = most do. My heart does go out to this boy’s parents.

[the808bass]

More associated with hearing voices in their heads believing it as a revelation from G-d

Fair enough. I am of the opinion that God can speak to us today. I am also of the opinion that if a person describes God speaking to him/her as "rhema" that He probably didn't. :-)

[CindyDawg]

I had to try this!

[CardCarryingMember.VastRightWC]

Since we've been speaking a lot here about the Murray family (it turns out their names are Ron and Loretta), you might be interested in this:

Lives of victims remembered, celebrated

Here's an excerpt from the page, but it doesn't do the webpage justice. Believe me, you'll want to go to it yourself and click on the videos at the bottom of the lefthand column, but only after locating your tissue box:

Also after the service, [deceased YWAM worker Tiffany] Johnson's mother Diane Jacobson said she planned to meet with the family of the gunman later on Wednesday.
 
"We love and forgive them," said Jacobson. "They have no reason to hang their heads. Their son was exactly the troubled person Tiffany was trying to reach. We hope God blesses them."
 
New Love Fellowship Church Pastor Philip Abeyta, who is also Murray's uncle, met with the victims' families after the memorial service. Murray's parents later met with the families of the victims on their own. The Murrays issued the following statement regarding the meetings:
 
"The entire Murray family is overwhelmed by this act of Christian love and forgiveness. Matthew's parents, Ron and Loretta, are humbled beyond words and deeply grateful to the families of God's children, Tiffany Johnson and Philip Crouse, for taking this extraordinary step to begin the process of healing and reconciliation. What an incredible example of the power of God's love."

The two YWAM victims:

TIFFANY JOHNSON:

PHIL CROUSE: