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To: Mrs. Don-o
In all sincerity, I ask: if we are not to judge atheism by its organized historic manifestations, how are we to judge it?

Admittedly, atheism is much more often associated with the left. Conservative people tend to have organized religion as part of the framework of their conservatism.

You have an interesting list there, but besides the Marxists/Communists, the only one I really associate with mass violence is the French Revolution. I thought most Americans regarded that as a "good thing", overthrowing monarchy in favor of republican forms of government has been very messy, but it has been part of the path of progress.

The other things you mention seem to be in the tradition of Europeans always wishing to fight each other over something, whether it be different flavors of Christianity, or Christians versus those who would throw off Christianity. If you want to judge atheists by the worst among us, then allow us to judge Christianity by its most infamous practitioners as well. Or, we could just both admit that social change in bygone years was accompanied by far more violence than Western civilization will tolerate today.

48 posted on 11/30/2007 12:41:42 PM PST by hunter112 (Change will happen when very good men are forced to do very bad things.)
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To: hunter112
Or, we could just both admit that social change in bygone years was accompanied by far more violence than Western civilization will tolerate today.

I would agree that would be prudent.

In reality, atheists as a group are probably the most politically diverse and unorganized (not disorganized) group of people you can find. Not even the largest atheist organization can hold a candle to the smallest national organizations of the Christian faith. After all, disbelief in a God is not much of a unifying concept (and nor should it be, unless forced into it by external oppression).

While liberal atheists may be in the majority in the US, you will find conservative atheists are well represented in countries where the fortunes of the nation's right-wing party is less bound up with the religious right.

62 posted on 11/30/2007 1:07:50 PM PST by tyke
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To: hunter112
"I thought most Americans regarded that [French Revolution] as a "good thing", overthrowing monarchy in favor of republican forms of government has been very messy, but it has been part of the path of progress."

I don't know what "most Americans" would think; rather cynically, I doubt that "most Americans" could name one figure of the French Revolution, nor specify the decade in which it occurred. However the French Republicans did carry out the genocide of the Vendee, and the general idea (omelet...eggs) was both admired and emulated by Lenin 125 years later.

"If you want to judge atheists by the worst among us, then allow us to judge Christianity by its most infamous practitioners as well."

I understand and appreciate this point.

If one wanted a positive and summary way of expressing the overall cultural achievement of Christianity, one could simply say "Western Civilization."

An analogous summary way of expressing the overall cultural achievement of atheism (excluding, if you wish, the achievements of international Communism) would be ....?

68 posted on 11/30/2007 2:02:18 PM PST by Mrs. Don-o (Cordially.)
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To: hunter112
Admittedly, atheism is much more often associated with the left. Conservative people tend to have organized religion as part of the framework of their conservatism.

Quite right; the essential difference between left and right is the difference between ideology versus theology. Atheists by and large worship at the altar of State, Theists at the altar of God. The Left believes that power resides solely in Man, the Right believes it rests with God.

You have an interesting list there, but besides the Marxists/Communists, the only one I really associate with mass violence is the French Revolution. I thought most Americans regarded that as a "good thing", overthrowing monarchy in favor of republican forms of government has been very messy, but it has been part of the path of progress.

You are apparently unfamiliar with the Godfather of modern conservatives, Edmund Burke. His 'Reflections On The Revolution In France' draws a sharp distinction between the American Revolution and the French Revolution, ergo, their's was not "a good thing".

The other things you mention seem to be in the tradition of Europeans always wishing to fight each other over something, whether it be different flavors of Christianity, or Christians versus those who would throw off Christianity. If you want to judge atheists by the worst among us, then allow us to judge Christianity by its most infamous practitioners as well. Or, we could just both admit that social change in bygone years was accompanied by far more violence than Western civilization will tolerate today.

I disagree, it seems that an honest reading of history would show Christianity as a restraining force in civilization but once the"shackles of religion" were tossed off Western Civilization became exponentially bloodier and bloodthirsty, just as that famous atheist Freidrich Nietzche predicted it would.

87 posted on 11/30/2007 8:40:22 PM PST by TradicalRC (Let's make immigration Safe, Legal and Rare.)
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