Posted on 11/27/2007 6:15:36 PM PST by Ernest_at_the_Beach
You might want to let a jury consider the evidence, as we do in this legal system.
From the Police:
Police caution that although the 911 recording makes for provocative discussion, it fails to answer many questions they must try to answer: Was Horn on his property when he fired or had he ventured into the neighbor's yard? Were the suspects coming at him? Did he feel threatened?
The points you assert as "fact" are not decided yet.
I am in favor of vigorous self defense rights but it isn't clear that the conduct of this individual falls under that rubric.
And I agree with your argument, at least to the extent that there is always malice aforethought- an intent to kill- when the muzzle of a gun is pointed at a living target. Of course he intended to kill them. I would hope so, as that is the threat in a leveled firearm, not the firearm itself :D.
The warning WAS given, and if, as it says above thread, they were shot from a distance of 15ft, then that warning would have to be considered explicit. There is no time for parlay. Anything that is going to go down is gonna happen in a split second. ANY movement at that distance is justifiable as a threat, and at that distance, I am surprised he got off a warning at all. Your argument regarding "enough time for the warning to take effect" is incorrect for that reason IMHO.
Bear in mind that at 15 ft a gun and a knife are about an even match if the knife holder knows what he is doing- One good throw or leap, and that knife can reach out and touch you.
As for any neighbors who claim otherwise, that the guys charged him, I say that the audible evidence contradicts what they say.
Your contention aside, I would be willing to submit that the witness of folks on the ground is of more worth than anything else regarding what happened in that split second. I consider it the height of folly to gainsay what they have committed to (regardless of any motive on their part, btw).
Eye witness has vouched that they were going after the man, and he has not been charged with a crime. Prosecuting this man based on this in the courts serves no greater good, nor any form of justice.
Classifying this man an “murderer” for his actions is nonsense.
The criminals here lie dead, and their actions and decisions lead them to that place. They have no one to blame but themselves for their fate, and to suggest otherwise is just insanity.
No wonder liberals see the world upside down... some here are arguing the same logic.
Odd, that.
I know what you mean, but most people believe the police are there to protect and serve the public. Unfortunately it means they protect and serve the Law not the public and in the end you are on your own and responsible for your own welfare/self defense.
But cops don't do their job. I see and read about it all the time. I see cars speed by them and the cops do not give chase. I see them run lights or make dangerous or illegal turns right in front of them and the cops do nothing. In Columbine, the cops stood outside for an unGodly amount of time. If those two punks had cooler heads, they could have killed dozens of more students. Same as in VA Tech. The Fed cops don't stop the illegals at the border or will not come get them when caught. Other city cops will not arrest them for being illegals until they really cross the line.
Cry all you want for the two criminals; bemoan that the gungrabbers will chastise you, criticize Joe Horn all you want. The main point I will return to time and time again - if the cops do their job, the citizens will not have to.
This is a vigilant neighborhood watch program. How many hundreds of burglaries did this man stop by carrying out this lawful action. The police essentially write tickets and clean up after home invaders have wrought havoc on the unsuspecting. Mr.Horn acted within the writ of the codified law of the Texas Code. The shame is the these two lawless illegal aliens chose to make commerce on the backs of hard working lawabiding citizens. The reaped a whirlwind. It is the result of their doing, not Mr.Horn.
yes, that is the fact of the matter, isn't it?
Illegal alien, or not, makes no difference to me, and really doesn't matter regarding the point at hand.
You can call me all the names you want, it doesn’t change the fact that this guy escalated the event into one where two men died.
As a gun owner, I exercise my rights with tremendous appreciation of the consequences of wielding deadly force.
His neighbor was being stripped of some property. A serious crime, which has serious legal consequences. Death, however, is not one of the consequences.
Horn had an opportunity to become a star witness in a slam-dunk robbery case. Unfortunately, in his understandable frustration with the crime, he made a huge mistake. He created an unnecessary confrontation that lead not only to two dead men, but now he may go to jail.
Let me be clear, if someone is trying to kill me or my family, I will kill them first. I will not, however, go looking for that confrontation in order to protect your property, my property, or to send some sort of message.
As noble as his intent might have been, I doubt Horn’s neighbors are going to pay for his defense lawyer or feed his family while he awaits trial.
Feel free to call me a communist, canadian or lunatic if you want. The fact remains, in his zeal to be a superhero, he made a giant, fatal error.
Seconds later, the sound of a gun being loaded could be heard on the 911 tape, followed by a warning -- "Move [and] you're dead" -- and then three bursts of gunfire. Miguel DeJesus, 38, and Diego Ortiz, 30, both of whom had small-time criminal histories, died of their wounds.
Fire the dispatcher and give him a medal. Everything he did was completely legal.
It was 2 PM, but the crimes they were committing don't require it to be. That only applies to simple theft, and criminal mischief.
A hundred years ago, no one would question this. What's that you say? It's 2007. Not the wild west. Not a hundred years ago. I agree. But than my question which no one has answer - WHERE WERE THE POLICE!
You talk about him being a star witness. A star witness to what trial? If the police will not show up while a robbery is in progress, what makes you think they will spend time searching for them after the fact?
And if his neighbors ignore him and his circumstances - if he goes to jail - than they are mighty ingrateful. I hope that someone like that watches over my home and property while I'm not around or away.
Another thought. Would you provide support if you looked out the window and saw two men holding guns on the family next door? If so, why? Let them shoot the family and you can be a star witness. No need to look for trouble, is there?
On his own property? I don't think so. Neither the law, in Texas, nor morality require you to cower in your home. It might be the smart thing to do, but not necessarily the moral thing.
Joe Horn faces possible prison time,
If he hasn't yet been hauled into jail, it's highly unlikely. With a neighbor corroborating his version of events, with the audio record not contradicting it, and the deceased being criminals caught in the act, the chances of a Texas Grand Jury returning a "True Bill" (an indictment) are pretty slim.
I disagree, you can be ready to kill someone if necessary, but still not be "intending" to do it. Or I'd at least add "if necessary" on the end of that "intended to kill someone".
That's the meaning I get from the audio too. But you have to listen to it, just a reading a transcript doesn't quite cut it.
On which planet?
They usually shoot the neighbor's dog too.
I guess someone should ask the perps if someone else' property is worth dieing for.
Actually it might be, but one need agree with the notion that the audio tape contradicts his statement, and that of the eyewitness, that they charged him. They may have started to charge him before or as he shouted the warning. As most of us know, you don't have much time to act if someone is coming at you from 15 feet away. Not much time at all. Being outnumbered makes it even more problematical.
It's speculation, but I suspect when the first goblin was shot, the second had second thoughts, but had only started to turn, when the second or third shot caught him. AFAIK, we don't know if the first or the second shot took out the first crook. Given the slight pause between chambering the third round and firing it, I'd speculate that the first shot missed, the second got the first burglar, and the pause was to acquire a the second target, who about the same time the trigger was pulled, started to turn away.
Oh and we still don't know what that shotgun was stuffed with. Whatever it was, it was effective at stopping the threat.
If you read that quote carefully you'll see that it could not be determined by the audio recording. This story is out of date. It doesn't even mention the eyewitness corroboration.
It's been two weeks, if the police had any reason to believe Mr. Horn committed a crime, they'd have charged him. AFAIK, the case has not yet been presented to a grand jury, but most often in cases involving citizens killing persons committing crimes, the Grand Jury returns "No Bill", meaning they find insufficient evidence for an indictment. There isn't going to be any more evidence than already exists. I suspect the case will be taken to the next grand jury session.
I'd go that far...
That's the meaning I get from the audio too. But you have to listen to it, just a reading a transcript doesn't quite cut it.
Yep! there's a pretty full two-count between "don't move" and the first shot... the point of decision was in that two-count, and obviously the perps chose the wrong plan of action.
Just as general information for the thread, when you hear "Cha-Chink! Don't move!", the only thing you may safely move is your bowels. :D
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