Posted on 11/27/2007 6:15:36 PM PST by Ernest_at_the_Beach
PASADENA, TEXAS -- When he saw two men pry into his neighbor's house with a crowbar one afternoon earlier this month, Joe Horn did what many people would do: He called 911.
But when police had not shown up by the time the suspects were about to leave, the 61-year-old retiree did something most people probably would not: He stepped outside with his 12-gauge shotgun and killed them.
"I'm not going to let them get away with this," Horn told the 911 dispatcher, who responded: "Property's not worth killing someone over."
Seconds later, the sound of a gun being loaded could be heard on the 911 tape, followed by a warning -- "Move [and] you're dead" -- and then three bursts of gunfire. Miguel DeJesus, 38, and Diego Ortiz, 30, both of whom had small-time criminal histories, died of their wounds.
The six-minute recording of Horn's anger, frustration and eagerness to take the law into his own hands has made him the focus of a national controversy. Critics condemn him as a vigilante bent on meting out murderous justice. Admirers praise him as a courageous hero whom any law abider would love to have next door.
"Why is he still a free man?" Linda E. Edwards wrote in a letter to the Houston Chronicle.
"Joe Horn gets a Texas 'attaboy' from me," countered John E. Meagher in the next letter. "Justice was served, law or not."
As the debate rages on talk radio and cable-TV news shows, Horn remains free.
(Excerpt) Read more at latimes.com ...
Well, of course he intended to kill someone... One doesn't level a weapon without such intent. If you don't intend to pull the trigger, you may as well stay home.
He hauled out his iron.
He clearly gave warning.
Somebody moved.
End of story.
A while back, one of my neighbors (I don't know him well) horses got out in the middle of the night. My boy and I caught 'em up, and walked them home, but I didn't know where the gates were, or where he would want them as the fence was obviously down, so I went to the door and knocked. He opened the door and gave me greeting with a .45 laid dead steady right between my eyes... Well, I told my boy to stand off and make sure his hands were showing, and then I carefully told my neighbor what our business was. Thereafter, the pistol was put away, and he became a lot more friendly...
My point is this... Such a greeting at 2am is not only acceptable, it should be expected. I know for a fact that if I had not conducted myself with all the proper etiquette such a situation demands, I would be very dead right now. That etiquette includes not moving, or at the most moving very slowly, as anyone with a brain would understand... The gentleman with the gun is threat-ready and on a hair trigger, one naturally makes oneself as nonthreatening as possible, or one will predictably suffer the consequences.
Now, I don't know much about Texas (other than the folks I've met), or the Desert Southwest for that matter, but I would be very surprised if the same rules don't apply- They are universal in the Rockies... And probably throughout the West (and the South)
oops! ping to 121
My argument is not about a couple of burglars getting shot to death - they played a dangerous game and it ended in the worst possible way for them. Too bad. My problem is more that he had already decided to shoot them before he went outside, but people are trying to prop him up as if he provided ample warning to the guys before pulling the trigger and only after they charged him did he decide to shoot them. I say that’s a pile of crap - he fully intended to shoot and kill them, and his “warning” was nothing more than a show for the dispatcher (who he had conveniently NOT hung up on) to hear. That warning had no chance of being effective in any way because there wasn’t enough time for the perps to respond to it. It’s like throwing a baseball at someone’s head and just before it gets there you yell “duck”. If it hits them, you can just say “oh well, I warned them.”
As for any neighbors who claim otherwise, that the guys charged him, I say that the audible evidence contradicts what they say. It’s clear on the recording that there wasn’t sufficient time between the warning and the shots for anyone to make any determination as to whether someone was charging the guy or not.
RightFighter - maybe that was his intent. The fact is, they were stealing from someone and now they will not. If they were lawabiding, they would still be alive today. Given their names, I would hazard a guess that they were illegals. If so, they already broke the law by stealing into my country. So now they were caught stealing into someones home and stealing their property. How long down the road until they steal someones life. If the law did their job - right from the start and prevented them from entering my country illegally - none of this would have happened and we would not be arguing the finer points of the Texans actions.
I don’t have to know what he was thinking. He told me what he was thinking when he said “I’m gonna kill ‘em”.
So, two wrongs make a right, then. In essence?
Under Texas law, it is. Or more properly, for use of potentiallly deadly force to stop them from absconding with the property.
That wouldn't be his only defense, not in Texas. But in the event, one was shot in the chest, so he wasn't running away, the other was shot in the side, so he probably wasn't running away either, but may have been turning to do so, or turning to flank the defender.
I recognize it is an unpopular opinion around here, but Joe Horn should have followed the instructions of the 911 operator (who did a fantastic job, by the way). Had he done so, he quite possibly would have been the state’s key witness in the criminals’ trial.
Had Joe Horn stayed in his house, the worst outcome would have been that his neighbor would be short some property. He escalated the event when he walked outside. Now there are two dead men, Joe Horn faces possible prison time, and we gun advocates are left to fight back the gun-grabbers who will point to this case for years to come.
A phrase often used in hyperbole. You cannot draw any legal conclusion from it. The guy acted exactly correctly according to the accepted laws of firearms use in Texas. Any fault was with the perps---they should have stopped when he told'em to, as the EYEWITNESS verified.
A far more likely probability is that the crooks would have been long gone and never seen by the police.
You, sir, do not understand the law if you think that the phrase “I’m gonna kill ‘em” followed by the act of actually “killing ‘em” doesn’t constitute any more than hyperbole. Such utterances are used as evidence of intent at trials all the time. Are you of the opinion that we should never be able to use someone’s stated intent to kill as evidence of their intent?
So, an audio tape is more reliable evidence than actual eyewitnesses?? I don't think so.
As I understand it these perps went after him... there is nothing debatable here.
Confronting a criminal in the act of a crime is not illegal.. and if they threaten you, you have every right to put them down like the dogs they are.
Kudos to you sir.
Not when an EYEWITNESS says otherwise. You just keep forgetting that minor point. The guy acted exactly correctly according to Texas law (and the law of sanity).
You may be correct. Even so, we would have two fewer dead men and Joe Horn's family would not be concerned about him going to jail.
He should have stayed inside, continued the great job he started with the 911 operator, and given the most thorough description of the perpetrators and their route of escape.
Might want to get up to speed on the case.
He confronted the criminals, they went for him, he shot them dead.
Self Defense pure and simple.
I know the press makes it seem like he just walked out of hsi door and picked them off, that’s not what happened.
BS...
Guy didn’t just walk out his door and pick off 2 people.
He confronted them, they went for him and he shot them.
You might want to get the facts of the case right, instead of relying on this press drivel.
Nothing unchristian about killing a man who’s threatening your life. Self Defense is not unchristian.
Sorry, disagree.
If you are arguing one cannot use lethal force to protect ones life and property, then why aren’t you in Canada?
He confronted criminals in the act, they charged, he shot. Why should he or any other law abiding citizen cowar in a corner waiting for police because some piece of trash thinks they can take their belongings or threaten their lives?
He did nothing wrong, and your view that he’s a problem, frankly makes me wonder about your world view. When is stopping a crime in progress and protecting your own life a bad thing????
Sorry, no way to reach that conclusion without being insane.
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