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To: beltfed308
I wonder what the definition of "free state" is.

I think it's fairly clear -- the Founders recognized that the militia (the armed populace generally) was necessary for the security of a free state (against both external threats to the state's existence and internal threats to its freedom). A professional standing army with a monopoly on arms would suffice to protect a state, free or not, against the former.

As for the significance of the militia clause, the Miller case, in which the Supreme Court ruled that possession of a sawed-off shotgun was not protected by the Second Amendment because such weapons were not suited to military use*, indicates that it serves as guidance for what constitutes "arms". There is no such indication that it serves as guidance for what constitutes "the people".

*This finding of fact was faulty (in fact, such weapons were put to effective use in the trenches of WWI), but the Court was limited by the evidence before it.

262 posted on 11/29/2007 3:05:47 PM PST by steve-b (Sin lies only in hurting others unnecessarily. All other "sins" are invented nonsense. --RAH)
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To: steve-b
This finding of fact was faulty (in fact, such weapons were put to effective use in the trenches of WWI), but the Court was limited by the evidence before it.

Actually they chose to be so limited. If something is "common knowledge" they can recognize it without taking evidence or expert testimony.

Since it was only the short barreled shotgun portion of the NFA that was involved, a challenge to the machine gun portions, plus the "ban" contained in the 1986 FOPA, would not require overturning any Supreme Court precedence. Even the short shotgun portion could be challenged by presenting evidence that such are used, and have been for a long time, by either military or federal law enforcement forces (executing the laws of the union is one Constitutional function of the militia, and in fact was the first use by the federal government of state militias under President and CinC George Washington, who actually led them in the field during the Whiskey Rebellion). Giving evidence of police use of short barreled shotguns should not be a problem. Or even some military use, although the military has generally used longer barrels since the invention of repeating shotguns with tubular magazines under the barrel, because of the increased magazine capacity. Police, OTOH, favor the shorter barrel because they often operate or deploy directly from vehicles, where the longer barrel is a hindrance, just as it is for home defenders)

283 posted on 11/29/2007 5:00:31 PM PST by El Gato ("The Second Amendment is the RESET button of the United States Constitution." -- Doug McKay)
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To: steve-b
"in fact, such weapons were put to effective use in the trenches of WWI"

Not that short! Where are you getting your information?

You're either ignorant or a liar. Which is it?

285 posted on 11/29/2007 5:03:49 PM PST by robertpaulsen
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