Posted on 11/15/2007 12:05:00 PM PST by smoothsailing
Friend, you need to get your facts straight.
The people who ordered these certificates were clearly told, on the face of the certificate and elsewhere, that they are “warehouse receipts,” and they were not told that it was “legal tender.” In fact, for the better part of a decade the Liberty Dollar producers have repeatedly said that it is NOT legal tender, current money, coin, etc.
You’re sitting here pontificating, throwing out junk that’s completely contrary to ten years of demonstrated reality.
For example, here’s the links to the annual and monthly independent audit reports: http://www.libertydollar.org/ld/information/audits.htm
The audits were conducted, most recently, by Clark, Anderson McNelis CPA: http://www.camcpa.com/
Clark, Anderson, McNelis & Co., P.A.
Certified Public Accountants
560 West Canfield Avenue
Suite 100
Coeur d’Alene, ID 83815
Phone: (208) 772-6460
Fax: (208) 772-8272
Email: info@camcpa.com
Their Idaho State Board of Accountancy firm number is FR-0323, and their license expires September 30, 2008.
http://www.isba.idaho.gov/htm/firmsearch.cfm
If you’re prepared to call this licensed accounting firm liars, then you can certainly stand by your claim that “there was no control over the relationship between the amount of silver actually in a warehouse and the total amount of silver represented by all the certificates.”
We don’t know that there hadn’t been a summons. If there hadn’t previously been a summons or other less heavy-handed processes, the FBI may have felt that retaining the element of surprise was the best chance of getting hold of any precious metals that may actually have been in the “warehouse”, and of retrieving some of the real money that this guy had taken in, in order to ensure the maximum possible recovery to the victims of the scam.
I seriously doubt that this guy hadn’t previously received and ignored “cease and desist” orders from authorized agencies of the federal government.
As for silver and gold ETFs, they are VERY different from the certificates issued in this scam. First, nobody is alleging that the ETF shares themselves are legal tender. Second, the issuing organizations are subject to a great deal of regulation, reporting requirements, third party possession and verification of underlying assets (with the third parties also subject to regulation, verification, etc), and regular financial audits by outside auditors. And perhaps most importantly, they can be readily exchanged for real currency in an amount sufficient to purchase real gold and silver at very close to prevailing market prices. They are most certainly NOT under the control of one person and his handful of personally chosen employees, with the underlying precious metals stashed unverifiably in a warehouse that’s under his personal control.
The idea is if I spend my own money to produce a bunch of Rudy Giuliani (slap me!) yard signs, and sell them or give them away to other people, without being directed by or coordinated with the campaign, then I am, in fact, promoting the candidacy of the gun grabber but I do not have to count that expenditure towards my $2,300 individual campaign contribution limit.
Same idea with having Ron Paul’s image on these pieces of copper, silver, and gold bullion. It’s promoting his candidacy, but since it’s not coordinated with or orchestrated by his campaign, it does not fall under the $2,300 individual contribution limit.
I guess you must have missed my information about the monthly and annual independent audit reports conducted by an Idaho-licensed CPA firm. See above.
I understand, but you're not addressing the point of reversion to the GOP if there's coordination.
Only cash contributions could revert to the GOP. Not the "value" of promoting Ron Paul by purchasing his coin, which is negligible anyway. Comparing the promotional value to Paul of purchasing a coin with his face on it, imo nil, to the real value of your time or cash expenditures isn't valid.
I admit the company isn't clear what the benefit to the Paul campaign is here, it may be nothing, simply a benefit to the company of peddling coins.
They better be. If they're not, and this company come's very close to selling negotiable securities and accepting deposits, I'm hoping for their benefit they're in complete compliance with the securities laws.
Accounting firms rely primarily on the representations of management. Read the introductory letter from the accounting firm on any set of audited financials. They have no clue how many certificates this guy has mailed out, or will mail out in the future without adding a corresponding amount of silver to the warehouse, and no way of having any clue.
The article says that the same e-mail which complains about the raid “repeatedly defends the Liberty Dollar as a legal tender”. I haven’t seen the text of the entire e-mail, but in one of the excerpts given in the article, the author refers to the “real money” his group issues, versus “fake government money”. Whether this e-mail uses the exact term “legal tender” I don’t know, but I seriously doubt any of the purchasers could explain the difference between “real money” and “legal tender”. Since the e-mail says that the gold and silver backing the certificates has been confiscated, and is thus no longer accessible to the people who purchased the certificates, it pretty much proves the point: the certificates are completely worthless, and were always at huge risk of becoming completely worthless, and I seriously doubt that the issuing group’s marketing materials ever pointed that out to potential investors.
The key part of that sentence is "IMO." Obviously, there's people out there who don't share this opinion. A friend of mine printed up batches of nice, full color, glossy Ron Paul business cards for people to hand out to strangers and leave for waitresses in order to promote the RP candidacy. Same idea.
Nope, didn’t miss it. See below. If you still don’t get the point, you can visit the SEC’s EDGAR site and pull up Enron’s audited financials from right before its complete collapse.
How do you know this for a fact?
Dana Robson, CPA, for the aforementioned firm, signed a paper attesting to a finding that all warehouse receipts are 100% backed as indicated and stored properly as of the close of 2006.
The most recent available audit report for July 2007 was signed by Anderson Bros., CPA, Idaho State Board of Accountancy firm number FR-0161, says much the same thing, and includes a detailed schedule mapping warehouse receipt serial numbers to bullion inventory.
And here I thought the 9/11 Truthers had elaborate conspiracy theories.
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You make claims which you have no knowledge of. People got what they paid for EXCEPT that the Federal Government confiscated the latest shipment that was to be used to fill orders. People had the choice of actually receiving the silver or paper certificates just like they do on the NYSE.
This company has been in business several years giving people exactly what they wanted and ordered.
No wait, I think I see what you’re saying - you’re suggesting that the accounting firms which prepared the monthly and annual audit reports were lazy, and took vonNothaus’ and the Sunshine Mint’s word on the books, and made no effort to independently verify that the books matched up to physical reality. Is that about right?
In regard to your discussion, you should note that there are warehouse receipts, and there are warehouse receipts. When dealing with a reputable firm, metals are normally stored in a recognized, insured depository. If the firms EMail is to be believe, the metals securing these warehouse receipts were confiscated, thus did not represent metals stored at a depository, rather in the vendors storefront. If that’s the case, the CPA’s audit is irrelevant, unless it’s redone today, in which case there’s nothing backing the warehouse receipts.
Are you sure of that? If so, this is sounding more and more like a securities firm.
it certainly would be, if that had been even remotely analogous to what I actually posted.
Go back and re-read, sport.
According to years of documentation, the specie was stored with Sunshine Mint:
http://www.sunshinemint.com/Safekeeping.htm
If the FBI executed an order against Sunshine demanding that they freeze assets stored on behalf of the Liberty Dollar corporation, then they don’t have to cart the metal away in order to have confiscated it.
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Yes I am sure of it. When the business started it had the Secret Service review what they were doing and got a clean bill of health. (The Secret Service is in charge of protecting currency in circulation)
An ounce of silver is an ounce of silver, no matter what words are stamped or not stamped on it.
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