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To: YHAOS
“To tailor the charge of deism to any of the Founding Fathers, the critics must redefine ‘deist’ to fit the changing characteristics of the different Founders.” YHAOS

To call Franklin a Deist is to take him at his word. He said as much in his autobiography. He may not fit your picture of what a Deist should be, but he fit his own. He was an avid proponent of spirituality and gave to the cause no matter the denomination (giving to the building of a synagogue once I believe). He greatly admired a preacher for his great oratories (saying so in his autobiography) and was disappointed when he found out that the sermons were plagiarized, there being no sin in saying another man’s words, only in claiming them for your own. Franklin was from a Christian family and lived in a mostly Christian culture, to deny that he was influenced by Christianity would be to deny that shipbuilding has not been influenced by steel-working.

Franklin said he was a “thorough Deist”. Not slightly, not mostly, but thoroughly. Take him at his word.

“But I was scarce fifteen, when, after doubting by turns several points as I found them disputed in the different books I read, I began to doubt of the Revelation itself. Some books against Deism fell into my hands; they were said to be the substance of the sermons which had been preached at Boyle’s Lectures. It happened that they wrought an effect on me quite contrary to what was intended by them. For the arguments of the Deists, which were quoted to be refuted, appeared to be much stronger than the refutations; in short, I soon became a thorough Deist.” Franklin

http://www.usgennet.org/usa/topic/preservation/bios/franklin/chpt4.htm

247 posted on 11/26/2007 8:59:07 PM PST by allmendream ("A Lyger is pretty much my favorite animal."NapoleonD (Hunter 08))
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To: allmendream; betty boop; Alamo-Girl; js1138
[Franklin] may not fit your picture of what a Deist should be . . .

Not my ‘picture’ (what’s your ‘picture’, by the way, and will your picture remain constant, or will you modify your picture to fit the changing profiles of the personalities you wish to identify as ‘Deist’?). In the meantime, my ‘picture’ is the picture held by a number of different personalities. For example:

The Compact Oxford English Dictionary of current English, third edition, 2005

Deism / noun / belief in the existence of an all-powerful creator who does not intervene in the universe. Compare with theism.

Or another:

Merriam’s Webster’s New Collegiate Dictionary, 1953

Deism / n. / Belief in a personal God as creator of the world and final judge of men, but as remaining in the interval completely beyond the range of human experience. – Syn. See Atheist.

Webster’s Universal Dictionary of the English Language, 1937. An unabridged descendant of the original Webster’s.

deism / n / The doctrine or creed of a deist; usually, belief in the existence of a Supreme Being as the source of finite existence, to the exclusion of revelation and the supernatural doctrines of Christianity.

And, finally, a more thoroughgoing definition from the original Webster’s, and one closer to the time of Franklin himself:

American Dictionary Of The English Language, modern reproduction of Noah Webster’s original 1828 dictionary, fifteenth printing, May 2002

DEISM / n / The doctrine or creed of a deist; the belief or system of religious opinions of those who acknowledge the existence of one God, but deny revelation: or deism is the belief in natural religion only, or those truths in doctrine and practice, which man is to discover by the light of reason, independent and exclusive of any revelation from God. Hence deism implies infidelity or a disbelief in the divine origin of the scriptures.

It seems more than passing strange that whenever I get into one of these ‘definition wars’, it’s not long before the suggestion is put forward that I am insincere in my efforts, and that I am angling to give the meaning I ‘want’ to a word. Does that look like what I am doing? (I don’t, by the way, ascribe this accusation to you, except, perhaps, in its most gentle form.) I don’t know that either Franklin or I are entitled to our own understanding of the meaning of the term Deism, but I doubt that either one of us are.

What is, after all, the point in identifying Franklin, and others of the Founding Fathers, as a Deist, if it is not to deny that the Judeo-Christian faith had any influence on the founding of the Union? None that I know of. That is the point driving the discussions of this subject on all the atheist websites of which I am aware. You’ve already observed, on the other hand, that Christianity did have a profound influence on Franklin, so what is the point of our discussion other than a self-edifying one? That’s sufficient a reason for me. We’ve already gotten crosswise on this subject once, and I have no desire to repeat the experience. (The observation that Christianity has had a profound influence on America’s destiny, by the way, can get you into a lot of trouble with The Masters of the Universe. Their reaction will be similar to the reaction you get when you show a silver cross or a gilded mirror to a vampire. This is what impelled js1138 to accuse boop of a fabrication over Franklin’s speech at the convention. He couldn’t stand boop’s point to go unchallenged).

To call Franklin a Deist is to take him at his word.

Oh splendid! What’s the word? What was Franklin’s definition of ‘Deism’? And, did he ascribe that definition to himself? How did it compare to the definitions above?

248 posted on 11/28/2007 1:47:44 PM PST by YHAOS
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