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To: robertpaulsen

The group has nothing if the individuals have nothing.
A group is an aggregate of individuals; without individuals there is no group.

Voting may be a “collective” activity, but if no individual has the right to vote then there is no voting, and if the state dictates how one shall vote then there is no right to vote. There is always the “write-in” option in voting, so you can vote for whoever you want (even if only one candidate is listed), or submit a blank ballot. There is always the “absentee ballot” option, so you can vote whenever you want (once they know what is being voted for and candidates are identified). Any limitations thereon are merely points of facilitating the effective exercise of that right by all individuals.

A “militia” is understood to be an aggregation of citizens who normally were not active soldiers. The Supreme Court in US v. Miller observed “The sentiment of the time strongly disfavored standing armies; the common view was that adequate defense of the country and laws could be secured through the Militia - civilians primarily, soldiers on occasion.” You cannot have a “militia” without individuals.

The Militia Act of 1792 sez “That every citizen, ... shall ... provide himself with [certain equipment]...” That’s individual citizens, equipping their individual selves, at their own individual cost.

“Let your gun be your constant companion on your walks... this gives exercise to the body and independence to the mind... no free man shall ever be debarred the use of guns” - Thomas Jefferson.
Plainly refers to individuals exercising an uninfringed right.

“The great object is, that every man be armed.” - Patrick Henry.

“... who are the militia, if they be not the people of this country...? I ask, who are the militia? They consist of now of the whole people, except a few public officers.” - George Mason

“The militia, who are in fact the effective part of the people at large, will render many troops quite unnecessary. They will form a powerful check upon the regular troops, and will generally be sufficient to over-awe them” - Tench Coxe

Your bickering is tiresome.
The people is the aggregate of individual citizens.
The militia is the aggregate of individual citizens, individually self-armed.
That was plainly the understanding of the time.
To claim a collective is not an aggregate of individuals is to make the collective empty at best, and a body of agents of the state at worst.

When you vote, it is you voting, casting your vote, according to your choice, which you made whenever you decided, and discussed as openly as you like - the only limitation is the state organizing the voting process to be meaningful and timely.
Without you the individual, there is no vote.

Likewise the militia.
As a militia member, it is you, with your arms, obtained at your discretion and cost, used responsibly at your choice - the only limitation is the state/nation organizing the combat process to be meaningful and timely.
Without the armed individual, there is no militia.

BTW: voting is not included in the BoR, much less enumerated as “shall not be infringed”. Arms possession is.


794 posted on 11/14/2007 7:32:50 AM PST by ctdonath2 (The color blue tastes like the square root of 0?)
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To: ctdonath2
"BTW: voting is not included in the BoR, much less enumerated as “shall not be infringed”. Arms possession is."

No, but voting is included in other amendments -- the 15th, 19th, 24th, and the 26th -- and they say, "shall not be denied or abridged".

Those amendments count too, don't they?

"The people is the aggregate of individual citizens.
The militia is the aggregate of individual citizens, individually self-armed.
That was plainly the understanding of the time."

Of certain individual citizens, yes. I agree. And the second amendment protected their inividual right to keep and bear arms when they acted in the aggregate.

814 posted on 11/14/2007 9:14:54 AM PST by robertpaulsen
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