Mitt Romney is a Mormon and I am a Baptist: Get Over It!

North Star Writers Group ^ | October 29, 2007 | Herman Cain

[Invisigoth]

The Baptists, Methodists, Catholics, Lutherans, Pentecostals, Mormons and a few other faiths have three things in common – they believe in Jesus Christ, that He is the Son of God and that He died and was resurrected for our sins.

So what’s the problem?

The political pundits continue to try and make Mitt Romney’s religious beliefs a big issue as he runs for the Republican presidential nomination. Different denominations of Christianity are just that – different denominations – which means different worship practices of the same fundamental Christian beliefs.

Some people have commented that they cannot support Mitt Romney because he is a Mormon. When they are pressed to explain why that is objectionable, they stutter. Still others are skeptical of Mitt Romney based solely on hearsay or lack of knowledge about Mormons.

[Old Mountain man]

His thoughts are quite charming, in a convoluted and mean way.

[JamesP81]

If the right books are not in the Bible then God could not protect his own words . . . and that’s not God.

As I've stated on threads similar to this one:

God created all that there is in the space of six days. I think He can probably get a book published. Furthermore, any god that was so weak that he couldn't stop mere mortal men from corrupting his word is probably not a god worthy of worship.

[Old Mountain man]

He seems like some of my relatives - once he gets something in his head, right or wrong, he can’t change his mind.

[MHGinTN]

Bless your heart, Resty, I don’t post the truth about Joe Smith for you, I post it for readers at FR. I will continue to do so despite your snipe-ing, especially regarding his adulterous history and his fabrications and heresies.

[MHGinTN]

You really ought to be more careful when you’re trying to be hateful ... the article/book review is an excerpt from a newspaper in Utah! Is there something you can take for that root of bitterness in you?

[Colofornian]

Certainly enough to know that they were viewed primarily as a political rather than a religious threat, in no small part due to Joseph Smith's inability to resist the temptations of theocracy.

On June 4 of this year, the Salt Lake Tribune ran the following article (excerpt follows)...note the bold face:

Headline: "Romney candidacy has resurrected last days prophecy of Mormon saving the Constitution" WASHINGTON - It's Mormon lore, a story passed along by some old-timers about the importance of their faith and their country. In the latter days, the story goes, the U.S. Constitution will hang by a thread and a Mormon will ride in on a metaphorical white horse to save it. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints says it does not accept the legend - commonly referred to as the "White Horse Prophecy" - as doctrine. The issue, however, has been raised on those occasions when Mormons have sought the Oval Office: George Romney was asked about it during his bid in 1968, Sen. Orrin Hatch discussed it when he ran in 2000, and now Mitt Romney. "It is being raised," says Phil Barlow, a professor of Mormon history and culture at Utah State University. "I've heard it a bit lately." Romney says he doesn't believe in the supposed prophecy, nor did his father when he ran. "I haven't heard my name associated with it or anything of that nature," Mitt Romney told The Salt Lake Tribune during an interview earlier this year. "That's not official church doctrine. There are a lot of things that are speculation and discussion by church members and even church leaders that aren't official church doctrine. I don't put that at the heart of my religious belief." The disputed prophecy was recorded in a diary entry of a Mormon who had heard the tale from two men who were with Joseph Smith in Nauvoo, Ill. when he supposedly declared the prophecy. "You will see the Constitution of the United States almost destroyed," the diary entry quotes Smith as saying. "It will hang like a thread as fine as a silk fiber." Not only will the Mormons save the Constitution, under the prediction, but the prophecy goes further, insinuating that Mormons will control the government. "Power will be given to the White Horse to rebuke the nations afar off, and you obey it, for the laws go forth from Zion," the prophecy says.

Now I want to clarify that I mentioned my opposition before I was even aware of this "prophesy"--so it's hardly my basis of concern. Still, if you want to address all of this from just a pure "theocratic" angle, folks will at least want to be aware of the "White Horse prophesy."

One of my concerns all along is simply this: "Does this candidate have the discernment skills to make some of the most important foreign policy decisions in the world in what has to be considered as the most important role in the world?" (POTUS)

If a candidate can't accurately size up a world religion (and LDS are 100% off-base and wrong in sizing up historic Christianity since they label us 100% apostates from the faith), then are they trustworthy in sizing up a world religion like Islam?

This question isn't unique to LDS. Muslims refer to Christians as "infidels." So the same goes for Muslim candidates.

So, if we agreed that a candidate belongs to the most deceptive cult in the world, then certainly that candidate's vulnerability to deception in the most important area of his life--his faith--serves as an indicator that he/she might be more easily deceived in public policy issues. "Vulnerability to deception" belongs on a character checklist!

I just fail to see the theocrat in Mitt Romney.

One of my key points in my earlier posts is I attempted to draw an "If-Then" conclusion: If LDS theology effects social positions, then patterns of evolving theology and evolving social positions yields leaders who are all too comfortable with shifting both theology AND social positions.

And this is where your definition of "theocracy" is too narrow. You don't include the psychology of certain aspects of theological history. If a religious leader views God & historical faith leaders as ones who constantly do 100% about-faces on social positions...where theology & social positions not only "evolve" but involve total u-turns, then my premise is that when you have a leader like Mitt who has already displayed a penchant for multiple total u-turns THEN that = a socially (as in social issues) unpredictable leader.

Wouldn't you agree that Mitt is totally unpredictable on social issues based upon his personal track record and based upon the historic leaders and the "god" he elevates as his role models?

[MHGinTN]

Pass the ice along ... that’s gonna leave a mark!

[restornu]

Wha’t with the Bless your heart sarcasm!

Post all the opinions you want Joseph Smith did NOT engage in adultry as youe foolsih mind would like to spin!

[restornu]

You are projecting your contempt again!

[Old Mountain man]

Let’s face it: you are so biased you would not admit it if Jesus Christ himself appeared to you and said that Joseph Smith was right.

[Colofornian]

Let’s face it: you are so biased you would not admit it if Jesus Christ himself appeared to you and said that Joseph Smith was right.

What? You mean like if someone in Jesus garb rang my doorbell on Halloween night and said, "Trick or treat. Joe was right!" I wouldn't believe it?

Listen, the apostle Paul warned us long ago about these things (and Paul didn't bother with empty words):

The real question is why you have intentionally subjugated the following three Biblical verses, and why do you continually stomp upon them?

"I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting the one who called you by the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel--which is really no gospel at all. Evidently some people are throwing you into confusion and are trying to pervert the gospel of Christ. But even if we or AN ANGEL FROM HEAVEN SHOULD PREACH A GOSPEL OTHER THAN THE ONE WE PREACHED TO YOU, LET HIM BE ETERNALLY CONDEMNED!." (Galatians 1:6-8)

[Colofornian]

Let’s face it: you are so biased you would not admit it if Jesus Christ himself appeared to you and said that Joseph Smith was right.

What? You mean like if someone in Jesus garb rang my doorbell on Halloween night and said, "Trick or treat. Joe was right!" I wouldn't believe it?

Listen, the apostle Paul warned us long ago about these things (and Paul didn't bother with empty words):

The real question is why you have intentionally subjugated the following three Biblical verses, and why do you continually stomp upon them?

"I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting the one who called you by the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel--which is really no gospel at all. Evidently some people are throwing you into confusion and are trying to pervert the gospel of Christ. But even if we or AN ANGEL FROM HEAVEN SHOULD PREACH A GOSPEL OTHER THAN THE ONE WE PREACHED TO YOU, LET HIM BE ETERNALLY CONDEMNED!." (Galatians 1:6-8)

[broncobilly]

Well then you can take it up with Ireneaus, since my quote comes from the same document.

[Hi Heels]

No offense meant, but this?:

"both had multiple wives, both were pedophiles, and both have atrocities committed in their names"

could have been said about Catholic priests and ministers of various faiths over the years....

[DelphiUser]

I don’t care that he is a Morman. What are his policies, that’s the question.

But the beliefs of Mormons are NOT those of orthodox Christians of any stripe, Catholic, Orthodox, or Protestant.

As a Mormon, may I say... Finally, Somebody who gets it, we are Christians, but we are not grampa's Roman Catholic, Pentecostal, etc church, we are not orthodox.

That said, MHO, who cares, I'm pulling for Fred Thompson, but will just about vote for the Devil if he was running opposite the hildabeast.

I have a hard time with "so called" conservatives who will not vote for someone because of their religion, and couldn't care a whit about their politics, it's not like we are electing him Pope for Pete's sake!

[Spiff]

Fine, let's talk about Mitt's record on abortion.

Wasn't it you that said that a person's actual record is the paramount qualifier? But now you've quoted a bunch of things that Mitt Romney has SAID, not his actual record of governance - as it specifically relates to abortion - as Governor of Massachusetts. And even now you promised to reveal Mitt's actual record, yet all you could produce were cherry-picked quotes he may have made one time or another.

Let's look at some of his actual record on Abortion and other information regarding his stance on the issue:

Abortion and Sanctity of Life

Governor Romney was presented with legislation concerning life issues on several occasions from the 85% majority Democrat Legislature in Massachusetts. In every instance he took the pro-life position by vetoing bills or lobbying for the pro-life approach, including the following actions:

He vetoed the bill providing state funding for human embryonic stem cell research
^{(Theo Emery, "Massachusetts Gov. Mitt Romney Vetoes Stem Cell Bill," The Associated Press, 5/27/05)}

He vetoed a bill that provided for the "morning after pill" without a prescription because it is an abortifacient and would have been available to minors without parental notification and consent
^{(Governor Mitt Romney, Op-Ed, "Why I Vetoed The Contraception Bill," The Boston Globe, 7/26/05)}

He vetoed legislation which would have redefined Massachusetts longstanding definition of the beginning of human life from fertilization to implantation
^{(Governor Mitt Romney, Letter To The Massachusetts State Senate And House Of Representatives, 5/12/05)}

He supported parental notification laws and opposed efforts to weaken parental involvement
^{(John McElhenny, "O'Brien And Romney Spar In Last Debate Before Election," The Associated Press, 10/29/02)}

He fought to promote abstinence education in public school classrooms with a program offered by faith-based Boston group Healthy Futures to middle school students. Gov. Romney's administration was the first in Massachusetts to use federal abstinence education funds for classroom programs.
^{(Office Of Governor Mitt Romney, Romney Announces Award of Abstinence Education Contract, April 20, 2006)}

Governor Romney: "Times of decision are moments of great clarity. Before I was Governor, the life issue was just that, an issue. But when responsibility for life or ending life was placed in my hands, I made the right decision. I chose life."
^{(Governor Mitt Romney's Remarks At The National Right To Life Convention Forum, June 15, 2007)}

Eight prominent leaders of pro-life and pro-family groups in Massachusetts wrote an open letter praising Gov. Romney for his leadership and accomplishments in these important issues and attesting to his commitment to the pro-life and pro-family causes. (This letter is a MUST READ)

Massachusetts Citizens for Life recently gave Gov. Romney their 2007 Mullins Award for Outstanding Political Leadership presented at the Mother's Day Pioneer Valley Dinner where Romney delivered the keynote speech.

Ann Romney serves as co-chairman of the Massachusetts Citizens for Life capital campaign.

Massachusetts Citizens For Life Executive Director Marie Sturgis: "Having Governor Romney in the corner office for the last four years has been one of the strongest assets the pro-life movement has had in Massachusetts."
^{(Kathryn Jean Lopez, "An Early Massachusetts Primary," National Review, 1/10/07)}

Massachusetts Citizens For Life Pioneer Valley Chapter Chairman Kevin Jourdain: "Mitt Romney was a great Governor, who served with honor and distinction. But most importantly, he was a pro-life Governor. He vetoed a number of pro-abortion pieces of legislation and made many pro-life appointments. He was always there for us."
^{(Kevin Jourdain, Remarks, Agawam, MA, 5/10/07)}

Governor Romney has received the important endorsement of James Bopp, Jr., a nationally-known attorney and leading advocate for the pro-life movement. Jim Bopp reviewed Romney's record as Governor and questioned him personally before giving Romney his endorsement. Bopp most recently joined the Romney Presidential campaign as a special adviser on life issues, an unpaid position.

Bopp wrote about the record of Gov. Romney,

"These actions as governor have lead leaders of the most important social conservative groups in Massachusetts, including Massachusetts Citizens for Life, Massachusetts Family Institute, and the Knights of Columbus, to observe that, while previous comments by Romney “are, taken by themselves, obviously worrisome to social conservatives including ourselves, they do not dovetail with the actions of Governor Romney from 2003 until now — and those actions positively and demonstrably impacted the social climate of Massachusetts.” They conclude that Romney “demonstrat[ed] [his] solid social conservative credentials by undertaking” these actions, and has therefore “proven that he shares our values, as well as our determination to protect them.”
^{(The Best Choice Is Also a Good Choice - Why social conservatives should support Mitt Romney for president, National Review Online, Feb. 21, 2007)}

Governor Romney believes Roe v. Wade should be overturned as a first step, allowing the States to set abortion policy, as a goal that can be achieved more quickly. For a longer range goal after overturning Roe v. Wade, he supports a Human Life Amendment to the Constitution and endorses legislation to make it clear that the 14th Amendment's protections apply to unborn children.

Romney believes that controversial abortion policy should be decided through the democratic process by citizens in the several states and their elected representatives rather than by federal judicial mandate.

Governor Romney: "I understand that my views on laws governing abortion set me in the minority in our Commonwealth. I am prolife. I believe that abortion is the wrong choice except in cases of incest, rape, and to save the life of the mother. I wish the people of America agreed, and that the laws of our nation could reflect that view. But while the nation remains so divided over abortion, I believe that the states, through the democratic process, should determine their own abortion laws and not have them dictated by judicial mandate."
^{("Why I vetoed contraception bill", Boston Globe Op-Ed, July 26, 2005)}

Gov. Romney Praised The Decision Upholding A Partial-Birth Abortion Ban. "Today, our nation's highest court reaffirmed the value of life in America by upholding a ban on a practice that offends basic human decency. This decision represents a step forward in protecting the weakest and most innocent among us."
^{(Gov. Mitt Romney, "Statement On Supreme Court's Partial Birth Abortion Ruling," Press Release, 4/18/07)}

View video of a portion of a speech delivered by Mitt Romney at the National Review Institute Conservative Summit in which he describes a pivotal event in his life while learning about stem cell research and embryo farming from Harvard research scientists. From a researcher's comment explaining that there wasn't a moral issue at stake in the embryo farming process because the embryos are destroyed after 14 days, Romney was hit hard by the harsh realization that, in his words, "We have so cheapened the value and sanctity of human life in our society that someone could think there is not a moral issue because we kill human embryos at 14 days." Gov. Romney publicly affirmed his pro-life position thereafter.

Research Briefing: Promoting A Culture Of Life: The Romney Vision Vs. The Democrat Vision

The influence of family members and events in Mitt Romney's life on matters of abortion are worth considering. They illuminate obstacles he surmounted to adopt pro-life beliefs in his private life. Mitt Romney’s mother, Lenore Romney, advocated a pro-choice position in her unsuccessful 1970 run for the U.S. Senate in Michigan, writing in her campaign platform, "I support and recognize the need for more liberal abortion rights while reaffirming the legal and medical measures needed to protect the unborn and pregnant woman [sic]." Mitt Romney revealed in 1994 that his brother-in-law's sister, a close family friend, died after a botched illegal abortion in the 1960s when Mitt would have been in his teens and early 20s.
^{(Romney releases mother's statement on abortion issue, Boston Globe, June 28, 2005)}

In a 2/14/07 appearance on ABC "Good Morning America", Ann Romney talks about her personal struggle with multiple sclerosis and offers her perspective on embryonic stem cell research with a powerful, inspiring message opposing medical experimentation that could conceivably relieve her own suffering. Read a thought-provoking commentary by Alliance Defense Fund attorney David French on Ann Romney's strength of character in opposing embryonic stem cell research as seen in the ABC "Good Morning America" segment.

Gov. Romney made a $15,000 contribution in 2006 to the pro-life group Massachusetts Citizens for Life from the Tyler Charitable Foundation, a joint family trust of Mitt and Ann Romney. They also donated $10,000 to the Massachusetts Family Institute during the same time period.

The Tyler Charitable Foundation has donated more than $2.9 million to more than 40 healthcare groups, schools, and other charitable organizations since 1999.

The Boston Globe noted that as late as 1995, Marie Sturgis, the legislative director for Massachusetts Citizens for Life, considered Romney to be an "abortion rights supporter", as did the national Family Research Council.

Massachusetts Citizen's for Life, you say? Well, let's see what they really have had to say RECENTLY (not in 1995)about Mitt Romney actual RECORD (you know, that thing that you've already said is the most important factor):

Massachusetts Citizens for Life recently gave Gov. Romney their 2007 Mullins Award for Outstanding Political Leadership presented at the Mother's Day Pioneer Valley Dinner where Romney delivered the keynote speech.

Massachusetts Citizens For Life Executive Director Marie Sturgis: "Having Governor Romney in the corner office for the last four years has been one of the strongest assets the pro-life movement has had in Massachusetts." (Kathryn Jean Lopez, "An Early Massachusetts Primary," National Review, 1/10/07)

Massachusetts Citizens For Life Pioneer Valley Chapter Chairman Kevin Jourdain: "Mitt Romney was a great Governor, who served with honor and distinction. But most importantly, he was a pro-life Governor. He vetoed a number of pro-abortion pieces of legislation and made many pro-life appointments. He was always there for us." (Kevin Jourdain, Remarks, Agawam, MA, 5/10/07)

found a Log Cabin Republican (of all groups!) advertisement which exposed Romney as having a pro-choice record as being "Mostly True", somewhat mitigated by his recent turnabout to a professed pro-life position.

So, now you're on the pro-radical gay agenda Log Cabin Republicans' side in opposing Mitt Romney due to the fact that Romney is AGAINST the gay agenda, opposes gay marriage, and is the only frontrunning candidate who has supported the Federal Marriage Amendment. Their very opposition to Mitt Romney, that you have cited, proves that Romney is against their agenda. Yet you're trying to attack Romney as if he was for their agenda. You're not making sense.

Which is because they grade on other issues besides just abortion and "life issues". If you look at the actual NRTL scorecards for 1997-1998, 1999-2000, and 2001-2002, we see that each session, the only things they dinged FDT on was his campaign finance "reform" votes (which, admittedly, were very bad decisions). As far as actual, real, true-to-life abortion votes, he is 100%, per the votes they listed each session.

The fact of the matter is, simply, that Fred Thompson did NOT receive 100% pro-life records from the premiere pro-life organization in America.

Here are the facts:

His voting record, according to Project Vote Smart's list of his ratings from National Right to Life, are:

• 1996 86%
• 1997 83%
• 1998 87%
• 1999 75%
• 2000 77%

And according to National Right to Life Committee's own ratings:

• 105th Congress 87%
• 106th Congress 78%
• 107th Congress 33%

If you average the ratings reported by Project Vote Smart, you get only an 81.6% pro-life rating.

If you average the ratings reported directly by the National Right to Life Commitee, you get only a 66% rating.

Since Dr. Willke appears to be either ignorant of or deliberately obfuscating Mitt's pro-choice record, then yes, Dr. Willke is a shill for Romney (though it should be noted that Dr. Willke's choice was apparently made because he suffers from UFOH (Unfounded Fear of Hillary) Syndrome.

So, because you don't agree with this prominent pro-life leader, you cast aspersions about his intelligence, call him stupid, or pretend to read his mind. You're trying to rationalize away this important and unsurpassed pro-life endorsement.

The only dead link in my previous post was the one that was supposed to go to the THOMAS list of amendments to H.R.2020 provided with the bill. Apparently THOMAS doesn't like such links, and allows them to expire. One can easily go to either of the other links (the two pro-life votes by FDT) and click on the bill number itself, then click on "Amendments" and see the list for themselves. The amendment you describe doesn't even APPEAR on that list, however. In fact, I've searched the Congressional Record and cannot find the language nor lines which you describe. Can you kindly provide a link to the text which contains the page and line numbers for verification (since the bill text, either HTML or PDF, seems to be unpaginated)?

You're making statements, basically calling me a liar, about this specific vote and the contents of the amendment on this and a previous thread, but you've just admitted that you don't know what you're talking about and have not actually looked at the Congressional Record to even know if the accusation you directed at me was remotely true. Verifiably false - that's what you called what I said about his vote on this amendment. Well, verify it then, or retract your accusation.

You are comparing apples with oranges. Mitt's public record, up until mid-2005, seems stridently pro-choice, and then he makes a sudden about face. It's not just that he "doesn't have a 100% pro-life voting record" or that he answered some questionnaire questions pro-choice.

You keep saying that like it is true, or something. But all you can provide are a few things that he SAID, not his actual record that you keep SAYING is stridently pro-choice. Other people disagree with you on your interpretation of his record. People like pro-life leaders, pro-life organizations, etc.

[DelphiUser]

Perhaps easier to think that Christianity is to Judaism as Mormonism is to Christianity. . .if only ‘perhaps’. It is related.

Well put, can I borrow it? (I'm a Mormon).

[tracer]

Step 1: Learn how to spell: M-O-R-M-O-N.

Step 2: Attempt to address doctrinal issues after knowing what they actually are...

[Colofornian]

That said, MHO, who cares, I'm pulling for Fred Thompson, but will just about vote for the Devil if he was running opposite the hildabeast.

Exactly of what we're afraid of, Delf...when the principles upon which this site were founded upon = a potential vote for "Lucipher for Prez."

(Hey, if we ever become a one-world government and Hillary runs against either the anti-christ or his lord, I guess you won't have to click on any FREEPER poll...we already know where it'll land)