Posted on 10/13/2007 7:36:02 PM PDT by neverdem
You did.
“But the “Pharisees” didn’t kill any prophets.”
So Jesus was mistaken, then?
What part of His words “your fathers” don’t you understand?
I am a Christian. Does my religion call on me to oppose Israel or not? I am asking you to clarify this for me. My own reading of the Christian Bible says it does not. If the Christian Bible is actually telling me to oppose Israel, it would hardly be a criticism of that Bible for you to straighten me out about it. It would simply be saving me from being an apostate to my own religion (which is already being an apostate to yours, just how wrong do you want me to go ;-)
On the other hand, if you insist on searching the web for your source of proper Christian doctrine, it is my sad duty to inform you that the entire Internet has yet to be canonized. I will let you know if becomes so, but don't hold your breath.
Look at where our culture came from and where it is going.
Indeed, we are ceasing to be a Christian nation.
Yes, the ancient Romans assimilated and recruited them, too. They are assimilated into another religion and misused as false examples.
Exactly my point. Realizing this I might have expected you to be a little more sensitive to committing a similar error in regards to Christianity.
What do you know about Judaism: only what the Romans said?
I'm not sure why you are asking, but my understanding of Judaism is based mostly on Jewish scripture. It is augmented somewhat by discussions and experiences I have had with Jewish friends. But I take the scripture rather then any individual Jew as authoritative. Indeed, as a Christian I tend to read some of the versus very differently (for instance I interpret Isaiah 53 as relating to Christ rather then the traditional Jewish interpretation of it relating to Israel). Also I often pray to God for understanding of the same scripture.
The last thing I would do is to take the word of some leftwing-nut "Jewish authority" telling me Israel has no right to exist.
Yes, and I do not give the open bigotry against Coulter a pass. Nor will I be fooled or cowed into denouncing her as a bigot by those who distort what she says after reading the transcript carefully. It would be easy to do so, and would give me brownie points with the politically ignorant who largely feel there must be some egalitarian balance for left wing nuts on the right. But in this particular case, I have gathered enough courage to base my opinion on reason.
The plain fact is that Deutsch was pumping her for something to be offended at and blatantly misinterpreted her in order to be offended.
Doug, let me clarify. I don’t care whether she said “want” or “should” or “need,” or if she intended her “friends” to walk the same bridge as her. I understood her message to mean they need to be perfected. This semantics argument is dumb. I was offended by what she said.
I repeat, I think Ann was an ASS for saying what she did. Bringing up the idea of Jews needing perfected 60 years after the Holocaust was idiotic, and does more harm than good. If you want to stick to your guns, by all means, but not all of us conservatives are ready to defend her no matter what. I like her well enough but I think what she said was wrong.
Well now YOU just brought it up. Thus by your own rule you must be an idiot. Of-coarse this is taking the above remark out of context, but by the standards you condemn Coulter by, this should not matter. To be consistent, you should just summarily brand yourself as an ASS for being an insenstive anti-sematic who brought up the idea that Jews were less perfect then others (albeit originally Deutsch brought this concept up, before shoving it in Anns mouth so that he could be offended by it).
But the point is, I'm not writing you off as an ASS or an idiot. I'm just questioning your judgement in this particular matter, and I will kindly let you clarify your remarks if you wish (would that Deustch and the knee-jerk Ann bashers would do the same).
Thanks for the opportunity. I’ll pass. It doesn’t need the lengthy posts this has taken up and I’m not interested in splitting hairs. I stand by my assertion that what she said was idiotic. Some things you spend a lot of time on; some things you decide aren’t worth it and don’t need to be proven to the nth degree.
We are agreed that sometimes a point is not worth rigorous veracity. However it seems to me before deciding to call someone an ASS on a public debate forum one should be prepared to make a strong case.
Ann Coulter’s Theology: Offensively Accurate
By Kevin McCullough
Sunday, October 14, 2007
Why CNBC’s Donny Deutsch likes to bait Christians into answers he doesn’t like, to only then berate them for his dislike of them is a wee bit unexplainable. Deutsch did it to my friend Stephen Baldwin as he attempted raise awareness about the dangerous impact of peep show/porn houses that operate near schools, and this past week he laid the same strategy on Ann Coulter. Both Coulter and Baldwin spoke to me shortly after their appearances (but prior to the airing of the taped segments) with a bit of bewilderment as to how the events had unfolded.
The problem was Ann would have none of it.
Deutsch invited Ann to describe what the world would look like if she had her say. One aspect of her answer was that the world would be more Christian:
DEUTSCH: Christian — so we should be Christian? It would be better if we were all Christian?
COULTER: Yes.
DEUTSCH: We should all be Christian?
COULTER: Yes. Would you like to come to church with me, Donny?
Deutsch was not amused:
DEUTSCH: So you don’t think that was offensive?
COULTER: No. I’m sorry. It is not intended to be. I don’t think you should take it that way, but that is what Christians consider themselves: perfected Jews. We believe the Old Testament. As you know from the Old Testament, God was constantly getting fed up with humans for not being able to, you know, live up to all the laws. What Christians believe — this is just a statement of what the New Testament is — is that that’s why Christ came and died for our sins. Christians believe the Old Testament. You don’t believe our testament.
Despite the rather precise, clear, and distinct explanations that Ann offered up, Deutsch continued to imply that Ann was anti-Semitic, religiously bigoted, and even educationally ignorant.
The problem was - he was describing himself.
Unfortunately many people will only scan headlines, hear the gossip, and assume Ann Coulter is a religious bigot. Sadly some goons are now responding in ways that have attempted to threaten Ann’s physical safety.
As I replayed some of the more pithy soundbytes on my show - based in New York City - our phone lines flooded with response from both Christians and Jews. The first half dozen or so to get through in fact all seemed Jewish and most were stunned at the silliness with which Deutsch conducted himself. And note this please... not ONE of them were offended by what Ann Coulter had stated.
The fact that Jews and Christians share the Old Testament as a source of truth that guides their life is a bit of common ground unlike any two other faith systems in the world. The fact that they come to different conclusions - particularly as to how the prophecies of that text are fulfilled is not surprising though. Simply put Christians believe that Yeshua fulfilled the Old Testament prophecy and was in fact the promised Messiah. Thus we count his teaching and the remainder of the New Testament as sacred inspired text. We believe it to be as every bit much part of the scripture as the Old. Jews come to different conclusions.
Secular or only culturally observant Jews like Deutsch have sometimes attempted to read more into the label of Christianity than what is there. Examples of this include the ridiculous attempt to describe Adolph Hitler as a practicing Christian, when there is far more evidence in his life’s actions and writings that he was perhaps entirely demon possessed. Also telling are the examples of the closeness Christians and Jews have shared throughout modern history - even Hitler-era examples such as Corrie Ten Boom and Dietrich Bonhoeffer.
Serious Christians as well as serious Jews have a unique ability to sit across the table from one another, share a meal, talk - even about religion - without feeling the need to come to blows. Hence why Ben Shapiro, Dennis Prager, and Michael Medved - are not merely people I have great esteem for, but men I consider to be true friends.
Prager and Medved have both even consistently argued for the strengthening of what has traditionally been a strong alliance between the Jewish community and the Evangelical church. I’ve heard both of them remark on multiple occasions, that perhaps there has never been “a more true friend” to the Jewish people than today’s Evangelical Christian.
Long story short - Ann Coulter’s theological perspective was accurate if she were being asked to answer the questions from the distinctly Christian viewpoint. Feigning outrage, yet in reality probably thankful for the free publicity his show received because of it, Deutsch did not demonstrate any evidence anti-Semitism on Coulter’s part.
What was demonstrated was that Ann has a knack for offending the ignorant.
Knowing that he could play the anti-Semite card without much scrutiny on his end was a cheap ploy to gain exposure at Ann’s expense. Ann is not a perfect person, but on this issue she stood fast and true. Anyone who took offense only demonstrated that they either do not understand their own belief system well enough to feel confident in it, or that they are not very good listeners.
I believe with Deutsch one could argue the case for both!
Look, The kindest spin I can give you critics is to guess that you never bothered to read the whole conversation before committing to your view. Presumably you are now too embarrassed to abandon your initial misinformed reaction, and have an uneasy feeling when reviewing the pesky little details that make up reasonable opinion.
I'm human too, and I make mistakes from time to time. This is not one of those times. I waited until I read and digested the conversation first. Now I'm on firm ground and feel no need to avoid the particulars.
You are right; I did not read it. I saw a good deal of the exchange on TV! The pesky details I do not want to engage in are all the scriptural so-there’s that have been used to justify it. I cringed when I heard it. I think it was wrong to have said. I do not think Jews need to be perfected and become Christians. Maybe I am a bad Christian because I don’t want to (nor feel remotely qualified to) evangelize - if this is the only determination of what makes a good Christian. I actually have a different opinion from you. If you feel this is because I am misinformed, so be it. It’s funny that I have first been accused of falling for a “mind trick” and now not seeing the actual exchange. You guys need to get over two things: a person has a different opinion than you, and two, they don’t need to spell it out. Again, you either think she is an ass for having said it, or you don’t and you are willing to defend the statement. Cleary, you agree with her and bully for you. I think it was wrong, counter-productive, and even a stupid thing to say.
Look, I am going to bow out of this conversation. I do not mean to be cross. You are right to want details of how I feel, yet I feel the comment is self-evidently wrong. I mean no ill will towards you.
It was DEUSTCH not COULTER who zeroed in on the subject of religion and DEMANDED answers. Ann had only mentioned Christianity in passing to another barrage of questions.
So by your own ill informed standards I have a perfect right to pump you for your religious opinions and then loudly ridicule you for pushing them on me!!
Good gravy!
Now now. Coulter doesn’t get a pass here. She could have said jews and everyone else that doesn’t except Christ as their saviour, are going to hell. Though she was forced in the interview to single out the jews, she could have said this. And her choice of words couldn’t have been more awful. Perfected? Last time I checked God is the only perfect one and nobody else can perfect anyone. Nobody can perfect humanity. Thats an generally excepted tenet of conservatism. Shouldn’t even try. Don’t Immanentize the Eschaton.
Andy, I have no idea what you are talking about. I pushed no views on you. I stated, in a public forum, that I think she’s wrong. Period. Why you are so offeneded is a mystery. I hadn’t realized I was being pumped for my religious beliefs. This has gotten weird.
Ann is the only one responsible for answering as she has. Do not blame Deustch for her poor answer. She can take it and is savy enough to know how to deal.
Oh, and find a new statement of exclamation, would you? “Zoinks!” or “E-gads!” is much better than “good gravy!”
Mark 16:15
"And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature."
Now I don't make it a habit of bringing up my faith at every opportunity, but I do realize that I am not being as good as a Christian as God has called be to be because of my reticence.
Ann was asked, point blank, about her faith. For her to answer in a "diplomatic" way would have been distinctly "un-Christian." Christ wasn't concerned with what people thought of Him, He was concerned with the state of their souls.
It may be taken by some uninformed individuals as a lapse in judgment on Ann's part. I feel, however, that she was being true to her faith.
I will not go around telling my Jewish friends that they are going to hell. If one of them asks me if I think they are going to hell I will answer them truthfully, for I believe Jesus when he said:
"I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life. No one comes unto the Father, but by Me."
It is sad, but it is what I believe. I will live my life as an example of Christ and try to draw my unbelieving friends to Him, but the decision is theirs.
Ann offered the host the chance for salvation and he slapped it aside. More's the pity...
Crusher, I don’t profess to be any sort of top rate Christian. If you are - and any others here are ... well, then, kudos to you and them! My own shortcomings in this regard have nothing to do with my feelings on this issue. I think the comment was insensitive, stupid, and asinine.
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