Posted on 08/27/2007 1:37:39 PM PDT by BnBlFlag
The reason the Civil War is such an important issue to many southerners is this: Most southerners don’t care much for centralized government power. As the federal government gets bigger and bigger, southerners cherish the memories of their ancestors who fought to secede and were stopped by the federal government, which then used the opportunity of their victory to increase federal power. And the subsequently ratified 14th Amendment has been used by the federal government repeatedly to justify federal power grabs to this very day.
And we’ve only narrowly dodged the bullet on even more federal power grabs under the 14th. For instance, the Boy Scouts won their case a few years ago by a narrow 5-4 vote. The courts may yet use the 14th to force same sex “marriage” on the entire country.
Add in the fact that we’re increasingly browbeaten for honoring our ancestors, whom we’re expected to denounce as evil, depraved monsters in order to receive our Political Correctness certification, and maybe you can understand us a little better. To steal a phrase from The Twilight Zone, there’s a desire on the part of the multi-cultural left to wish the Confederacy into the cornfield, to eradicate it and its symbols from any public display or recognition.
I don’t ever bother with the debates over whether secession was legal or illegal, because they’re endless. But I see no harm over southerners engaging in a little regional pride rebel flag waving, or in honoring Confederate heroes such as General Lee. I understand why the left is so hostile to the South. It stands in the way of their agenda. I don’t understand why some supposed conservatives get so bent out of shape over it. It simply shows the power of Political Correctness and the strength of the race card as a tool for shutting down debate.
More importantly how they took issue with any from the “North” about how awful you...
Seems as if the point you made agrees with you behavior.
The Isolationist movement in the years prior to Pearl Harbor was centered in the Midwest. The South was the least resistant region toward going to war in WWII. FDR encountered a lot of resistance from Southern Democrats over the New Deal, but his wartime preparations (such as Lend-Lease) got near unanimous Dixie backing.
“1. I could NOT possible care any less.”
And yet, here you are still talking about it.
“2. Just rember this (as jerked my thumb to my chest) WINNERS.”
Yes, quite an achievement, taking four years to win a war where you outnumbered the enemy 4 to 1 with a never ending supply of immigrants to conscript “for the cause.”
And of course, YOU’RE the winner because you were a union soldier back in 1861.
Yes, my point exactly. Thanks.
Add to the credit of the North's "winning", the unintended consequence of the establishment of an almost unchecked, almost unstoppable federal expansion paving the way for the infant US government's transformation into largest government body upon the face of the planet.
The greater credit, I believe, was that this nation came from "these United States of America" to "the United States of America", with her people assuming a common goal of unity, far unlike the Baltic states.
Of course, the irony is that the United States may indeed balkanize along racial lines in the future, due to open borders immigration policies and pandering to groups such as La Raza. And it’s largely the same people who hate the Confederacy and accuse them of treason who are bringing this about.
secession remains an OPTION when (you will note i said when, NOT if.) the government becomes dictatorial.
free dixie,sw
Yes, quite an achievement, taking four years to win a war where you outnumbered the enemy 4 to 1 with a never ending supply of immigrants to conscript “for the cause.”
LOL. Why are you making excuses? I still don’t care, it’s over, done, finished and you can’t change it.
“Why are you making excuses?”
Well, that’s just stupid. I did not make an excuse about anything — I stated the facts.
“I still don’t care, it’s over, done, finished and you can’t change it.”
If you didn’t care you wouldn’t be posting here. Apparently you can’t even be honest to yourself.
We have real and pressing issues that demand are attention not the least of which is finding and electing Real Conservatives who are willing to lead as opposed to just gaining employment.
Regards,
Boiler Plate
That is the opposite of how the judiciary works. No court, especially the Supreme Court, can rule on something that hasn't happened. And it goes further than that, no court can rule on a matter that has not been brought before it. Since secession had not been attempted before the court had not had a chance to rule on its legality.
However, we know that, when an issue is really important, a "test case" is found, somewhere, somehow, to force a ruling on it.
Prior to the Civil War and its devastating carnage, secession had been threatened many times, mostly by Northern politicians. We all know several examples and stainlessbanner has listed a several on Post 132.
If it was antebellum common knowledge that secession was illegal and treasonous, any one of those politicians could have been formally charged with treason as soon as you could say "Aaron Burr".
At that point, the legal case would have centered around the point of whether secession was treason or not and a legal precedent would have been set ..... prior to a bloodbath.
If either side was uncomfortable with the legal outcome, the "battle" could have been waged in the legal arena with maybe some sort of compromise or understanding being reached.
The reasoning of Texas v. White went like this... "The union between Texas and the other States was as complete, as perpetual, and as indissoluble as the union between the original States........
And the reasoning of Roe v. Wade went like that, and Polybius' reasoning in Post 120 went like this and the "perpetual" Articles of Confederartion lasted a shorter time than the bloom of youth in a pretty girl's face.
How long did those "perpetual" Articles of Confederation actually last?
Nine years.
And where, exactly, in the new contract, the Constitution, does it spell out in plain English, that, while this, that and the other thing in the Articles of Confederation are being thrown in the ash heap of History, that and this and the other thing are being kept and engraved in granite?
The phrase "The union between Texas and the other States was as complete, as perpetual, and as indissoluble as the union between the original States" could easily be interpreted to mean:
"This Constitution has an expiration date nine years in the future like the Articles did."
In my view, if the Constitution is supposed to "say" something, I want to see it in plain English ...
A constitution, to contain an accurate detail of all the subdivisions of which its great powers will admit, and of all the means by which they may be carried into execution, would partake of the prolixity of a legal code, and could scarcely be embraced by the human mind.
Very true. A Constitution that addresses every picky little detail from war powers to the price of Wisconsin cheese would be have the basic principles lost in a forest of trees.
However, when some particular point has the potential cause a national disaster of Biblical proportions ( the Civil War cost 600,000 lives out of a population of 31.4 million) that particular point deserves to be spelled out.
As I said before, I see it tragic oversight by the Founding Fathers.
Nobody is perfect.
It was a tragic oversight.
The Founding Fathers wrote a "short and sweet" Constitution and then threw in the Tenth Amendment to leave what powers were not prohibited to the Federal Government in the hands of the States. When the Tenth Amendment is ignored, you end up with things like Roe v. Wade.
Some men of the mid-nineteenth century, both North and South as seen by the many secession threats by Northern politicians over the years prior to 1861, took the Tenth Amendment at face value.
The legality of secession was left unclear to the point that honorable men could interpret it two different ways and that was a tragic oversight in the wording of the Constitution.
Lessons were learned from that oversight by future generations.
The European Union Constitution specifically addresses the issue of the legality of secession in Article 72.
How can the men living in 1861 be blamed for not following the reasoning of a Supreme Court ruling made in 1869?
I don't think anyone is blaming them,...
I saved this point, out of order, for last because it goes to the heart of of my participation in Civil War threads which is to try to get into dogfights and separate fighting dogs both of which I am fond of.
Look at my Post 133.
Free Republic Civil War threads are ALWAY about blame.
ALWAYS. :-)
These threads never seems to get beyond the "treason", "tyrant" , "slavery", "rights", "should have been hung" dog fights.
Look at your own tag line.
(Save Fredericksburg. Support CVBT.)
When do we ever leave 1860 politics behind and discuss Civil War topics where we agree to disagree on the politics and focus our attention on the brave men on both sides that did their duty for their country as they honorably saw their duty?
A Free Republic thread of your tag line would go like this:
Save Fredericksburg. Support CVBT.
** CVBT helped purchase Willis Hill in the center of Marye's Heights.
** Why are your supporting an organization that purchases the areas of a battlefield that were manned by traitors instead of purchasing areas of a battlefield in the town of Fredericksburg that were manned by loyal patriots.
** The men that manned Marye's Heights were not traitors.
** Yes they were.
** No they weren't.
** Yes they were.
** No they weren't.
** Yes they were.
** No they weren't.
We have the arguments after that memorized by now don't we? :-)
Why can' we ever leave the 1860's politics behind and just discuss:
Wow. Can you imagine the bravery of those Union lines going up, again and again, against Marye's Heights?
Yeah, that was amazing. And what about that John Pelham?
Do you think that Burnside could have mounted a flanking movement towards Chancellorsville by keeping up a token attack against Marye's Heights? Do you think it may have worked or would it have been impossible to carry out undetected?
Why can't we ever have threads like that?
That's my point.
At that point, both sides fired a volley at that strange Cuban man in the middle of no man's land and went on with the war. ;-)
Certainly. Your best and primary source is the data listed in the ‘Statistical History of the United States’. I can give that to you if you need it.
Next, a respected economist of the time, Thomas Kettell, used the data from the Treasury department in his book in 1859. He was often quoted by newspapers and orators of the time.
More up to date authors quote the same government data. Examples are Charles Beard and Charles Adams, in both his books.
The volume and value of southern grown products as a percentage of exports was widely known by the members of the legislature of the time, and frequently quoted in the congressional records.
“Well, that’s just stupid. I did not make an excuse about anything — I stated the facts”
OK then, if the north had only the same number of men they still would have won, correct?
Hoenstly, I only post because it is fun teasing you guys. I’m such a bad person.
You guys are so easy.
“OK then, if the north had only the same number of men they still would have won, correct?”
Not based on the kill ratios. The north lost more men per round fired.
“Hoenstly, I only post because it is fun teasing you guys. I’m such a bad person.”
Sorry it didn’t work.
Carolyn
Let me quote Chief Justice Chase on that question: "The Union of the States never was a purely artificial and arbitrary relation. It began among the Colonies, and grew out of common origin, mutual sympathies, kindred principles, similar interests, and geographical relations. It was confirmed and strengthened by the necessities of war, and received definite form, and character, and sanction from the Articles of Confederation. By these the Union was solemnly declared to 'be perpetual.' And when these Articles were found to be inadequate to the exigencies of the country, the Constitution was ordained 'to form a more perfect Union.' It is difficult to convey the idea of indissoluble unity more clearly than by these words. What can be indissoluble if a perpetual Union, made more perfect, is not?"
But that is neither here nor there, because I'm not arguing that the Union is perpetual or that states cannot leave the Union and neither was Chief Justice Chase. The question is the method which states leave. Can they just walk out, without discussion, regardless of how much harm their actions cause the remaining states? Or should withdrawl be negotiated by both sides to ensure that the interests of all are protected? I cannot believe that given the other restrictions the Constitution places on the states and the powers granted to Congress to literally create states in the first place that the Founders meant for secession to be unilateral.
That is what Tommy DiLorenzo would lead you to believe. It flat out ain't so.
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