Posted on 06/23/2007 1:28:02 PM PDT by Extremely Extreme Extremist
> I’m willing to do this just for the shear entertainment value.
You are sick. If this would “entertain” you, then you are truly odd. Gimped. Seek medical help, mate — you need recalibration.
> They believed their shows of piety alone would save them, even though they were sufficiently evil at the core to crucify their own Savior.
A classic example of where “faith” was betrayed by works.
Thanks for the ping!
~”I wonder how many of these verses the Mormonism Apologists would say are translated correctly?”~
Romans 3:24 and Romans 4:2 were modified by the Joseph Smith Translation, but I think you would rather like the changes. Take a look.
The asterisk was a step forward, but, really, MHG, such tactics as writing discussion points in white text do seem a tad beneath you.
Fundamentally, you seem to misunderstand the point. LDS doctrine embraces salvation by -grace-. It is necessary for our redemption.
All we say is that a person who receives Christ’s grace will demonstrate it by making an effort to follow His example. In other words, you can’t simply profess to accept Christ then go out and continue your lying, thieving, immoral ways and be acceptable before Christ. Isn’t this in line with mainstream Christianity?
The last thing a knowledgeable Mormon will tell you is that we -earn- salvation. Indeed, the fact that we strive to follow said example, and constantly fail, makes us more grateful still for the grace He has extended.
> I show you Christ Himself, (John 3), and you wish to talk about James?
Take it up with The Boss, mate. Me, I will not meddle with St James and I suggest you don’t either. As you know, he *is* rather well connected.
> Faith - vs- Deeds, I tell you that St. Paul was a jerk. Great in faith, great in deeds, some of them most screwed up.
I will say nothing about St Paul, save only that St Peter called him “beloved” in 2 Peter 3:15
You gonna argue with St Peter? Then go ahead, at your sole risk and peril. Don’t say you weren’t warned, because you were.
On one of the alleles of Jewish DNA is a small portion which has a marker, a mutation found only in descendents of Jews. This particular mutation point is found in those descended from Jews (like the tribe of folks in So. Africa, the Lemba, who proved they were Jews by this marker). The marker is not found in ANY Native American DNA. Since there is no marker connected to the Jews, the Native Americans are not descended from Jews. Period.
[FYI: One recruit to Bradman's project is David B. Goldstein, a population geneticist at Oxford University in England. Goldstein set about refining Hammer's work so as to develop a better genetic signature of Jewish populations.
"The problem is there has been intermingling with host populations, and that has obscured their common ancestry," Goldstein said.
He looked at a set of three Y chromosome sites with stable genetic mutations and six sites at which mutations occur quite often, a mix designed to give good resolution between similar Y chromosomes during historical times. The mutations are all at sites that lie outside the genes, and thus do not contribute in any way to the individual's physical makeup. From an article by Nicholas Wade, Group in Africa Has Jewish Roots, DNA Indicates ]
Alright, so Romney, a BYU alumnus, has reached out to develop political support at his alma mater. Shocking!
Strange, though... I missed the part where an LDS leader was directing the fundraising committee. Holland did facilitate the networking aspect, it appears.
But, then, we’re talking about Mormons. There just -has- to be something shady in the works!
Thanks for the link. Now I have a resource to refute this particular claim.
Good, keep it up, take them down. We don’t need such riffraff polluting the good name of the Church, or harming the community. Godspeed.
By the way, if what you say about these men is accurate, in my opinion, they will be judged one day just as the Pharisees of old were. Faith without works, after all, is dead.
The Mormon faith contradicts the Bible, grossly, yet claims that the Bible is true. Regarding marriage in heaven:
Matthew 22:23 That same day the Sadducees, who say there is no resurrection, came to him with a question. “Teacher,” they said, “Moses told us that if a man dies without having children, his brother must marry the widow and have children for him. Now there were seven brothers among us. The first one married and died, and since he had no children, he left his wife to his brother. The same thing happened to the second and third brother, right on down to the seventh. Finally, the woman died. Now then, at the resurrection, whose wife will she be of the seven, since all of them were married to her?”
Jesus replied, “You are in error because you do not know the Scriptures or the power of God. At the resurrection people will neither marry nor be given in marriage; they will be like the angels in heaven. But about the resurrection of the dead—have you not read what God said to you, ‘I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’? He is not the God of the dead but of the living.”
Mormons believe, contrary to the Bible, that there is marriage in heaven. Since the question asked about marriages on earth continuing in heaven this is as clear a statement as you can get. The Mormon faith contradicts the Bible, yet claims the Bible is truth. This makes the faith unreasonable. It is a very different thing to have a faith that corresponds to reality and is internally consistent than one that requires you to believe the impossible (it is impossible for the Bible to be true, your faith to be true, and for your faith to contradict the Bible).
Joseph Smith’s denial in a sermon that he was a polygamist (a lie) was in History of the Church, volume 6.
Similarly, Christ alone judges in the Bible. Mormons believe, contrary to the Bible, that Joseph Smith judges as well.
It’s all well and good to counter with some apologetics (oh, you know, God’s ways are higher than mine, that’s why the prophet said someone would go on a mission and then he died instead) but at some point you actually have to look at the reality of what you are apologizing for. The reality is the prophecy didn’t come true. False prophecy. False prophet.
Finally, the Mormon’s believe in multiple Gods. This contradicts the entire Bible, tens if not hundreds of verses saying there is one God.
Relying on Psalm 82:
1God standeth in the congregation of the mighty; he judgeth among the gods.
2How long will ye judge unjustly, and accept the persons of the wicked? Selah.
3Defend the poor and fatherless: do justice to the afflicted and needy.
4Deliver the poor and needy: rid them out of the hand of the wicked.
5They know not, neither will they understand; they walk on in darkness: all the foundations of the earth are out of course.
6I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.
7But ye shall die like men, and fall like one of the princes.
8Arise, O God, judge the earth: for thou shalt inherit all nations.
Notice that God is capitalized, the rulers he is talking about is not capitalized. It is ironic. He calls on God to judge the “judges.” Notice in verse 6 that the “gods.” small “g,” die.
Do Gods now die in the Mormon faith?
“You are sick. If this would “entertain” you, then you are truly odd. Gimped. Seek medical help, mate — you need recalibration.”
No more sick than your equating all religions to the same lowest common denominator. The reason you are so mad is that I showed your convictions to be made of water. You no more believe Islam is equivalent to other religions than I do, but in order to maintain your holier than thou status, you are willing to engage in cognitive dissidence.
And of course I would not be entertained by your head being cut off, I am however entertained by your attempt to squirm out of the end result of your type of thinking. By the way, that equivalence theory of yours does get other people killed, many have died by not understanding the consequences of the written words of the Koran - that kafir are to be enslaved or killed. You are just not brave enough to put your PC convictions to the test, so you become mad at me to hide your distress.
All religions are simply not the same, neither in our personal lives nor the public arena.
Christ also taught that mere professions of faith in Him weren’t sufficient to enter heaven, but that obedience to the commandments, concomitant with faith, was necessary. Thus he taught:
Matt. 7:21: Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that DOETH THE WILL of my Father which is in heaven.
Matt. 7:24: Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and DOETH THEM, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:
Luke 6:46: And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and DO NOT the things which I say?
Your comment about the Pharisees made me think of Christ’s counsel to not be hypocrites like them when he said in Matt. 23:1-5:
1 Then spake Jesus to the multitude, and to his disciples,
2 Saying, The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat:
3 All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not.
4 For they bind heavy burdens and grievous to be borne, and lay them on men’s shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers.
5 But all their works they do for to be seen of men: they make broad their phylacteries, and enlarge the borders of their garments.
~”You guys slip and slide out of everything through “new revelations”.”~
Yuh-huh. The problem here is that a discredited document is being taken by some as evidence, then hyped. This is known as “sensationalizing.”
Let’s see... the long list of things where the practices of the LDS Church have changed...
1. Plural marriage
2. Blacks in the Priesthood
3. Temple ritual modernization
uh... I think that’s about it. And all these had very good reason attached. Of course, all around us are swirling denominations that are “evolving” in their interpretations of the Bible. Interesting that you find such “slips and slides” acceptable.
I submit that we’d be in much better shape in regards to slumping morals if Orthodox Christianity “slipped and slid” as much as the LDS Church has.
~”I’m willing to do this just for the shear entertainment value.”~
I got it. It was funny. A bit gross, but funny.
Wow! Where’d you get that quote? Link?
From this site, perhaps?... http://mldb.byu.edu/roberts.htm
~”A classic example of where “faith” was betrayed by works.”~
Indeed. So, the philosophical question becomes, did the Pharisees, given their works, really have faith? Are faith and good works really separable?
If not, then all the adherents of “faith alone” grace, who have real faith, are really betraying their own cause by engaging in -gasp!- good works.
Blasphemers! Do they not know that their good works only serve to cheapen the power of the Atonement in their lives?!? (An actual argument put to me by such an adherent.)
At that point, their criticism of “faith and works” grace falls apart - why would our good works endanger our salvation any more than their good works endanger theirs, if we have the same faith they have?
I actually read another commentary by an adherent of “faith alone” grace that essentially stated that the law is for those who are not recipients of grace - as if acceptance of Christ is a big waiver on following His commandments.
It wasn’t just St. James who taught the importance of “doing.” It was Christ as well. Perhaps that is why St. James taught what he did about faith without works being dead. Thus, Christ taught:
Matt. 7:21: Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that DOETH THE WILL of my Father which is in heaven.
Matt. 7:24: Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and DOETH THEM, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:
Luke 6:46: And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and DO NOT the things which I say?
These faith v. works guys just don’t get it.
The simple fact that those who would seize on this as counter-evidence either miss or ignore is that the Nephites and Lamanites were -not- descendents of the Jews. They were of the house of Joseph, not Judah. Their only common ancestor was Jacob - Joseph and Judah didn’t even have the same mother.
DNA evidence gets to be pretty moot at that point, especially after a few thousand years of breeding and muddling, and particularly the mitochondrial DNA that, if I understand correctly, is under examination. You and I, I’m sure, have more DNA in common (perish the thought!).
That’s why this argument is dismissed out of hand so quickly by those like me. It just isn’t based on anything tangible.
“I missed the part where an LDS leader was directing the fundraising committee. Holland did facilitate the networking aspect, it appears.”
In those two sentences you say I am wrong, and then say I am right.
There is obvious coordination of the Mormon Church with the Romney campaign, it would be a lie to think not. Now I don’t have a problem with this religious involvement (have at it, it’s a free country), what I do have a problem with is your speaking out of two sides of your mouth. You say there is zero influence of Mormon hierarchy in elections while admitting Council of 12 member Holland was involved. It is this two sidedness of all our discussions that is problematic (Joseph Smith, both fallible man and Saint Prophet God, for example). Do I act stupid that you think you can get away with a shell game like this? If we allow this two-sided thinking, there is absolutely no argument that can be won against you - so I believe I should take the same tact (I am always right, except when I am wrong, in which case it was a mistake)
[But, then, we’re talking about Mormons. There just -has- to be something shady in the works!]
I don’t believe that is the case any more than you do, but what I have said is that because of the internal doctrinal tensions within the Mormon Church, political leaders and power brokers that are faithful show incredible strains that lead to bad decisions. That is not a universal condemnation of lay Mormons, but a specific criticism of the power elite.
A similar statement against another religion would be that celibacy in the Catholic priesthood is linked to pederasty. That is certainly not a pleasant statement, and I don’t believe it applies to all Catholics, but I think you would be hard pressed to dismiss it out of hand.
“Thanks for the link. Now I have a resource to refute this particular claim.”
Well, we started this thread by you implying I completely made up the involvement of the Mormon hierarchy with Romney, which accusation you’ve obviously been forced to eat (without apology I might add) after I provided a legitimate link. So the fact that you are determined to spin the facts just provided in the opposite direction is hardly surprising.
What part of “Mormon hierarchy involvement” don’t you understand?
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