“Who said anything about adopting a ‘baby’? There is no limit to the amount of money one can waste on legal fees vying for a perfect three minute old new born, but there are over a hundred thousand children available for adoption to good homes all over the US with only a few thousand dollars in legal fees.”
And again, we’re glossing over the fact that a large number of these kids have come from situations of extreme abuse and neglect. This isn’t Oliver Twist. I honor the folks who adopt older kids, but it’s naive to think that most or even many would-be parents are equipped to deal with children coming from abusive circumstances.
“I hope that you aren’t contending that the average cost or success rate of IVF are greater than the average cost or success rate of adoption. If so, I challenge this assertion.”
Challenge away.
If you’re talking about international adoptions (about half of all adoptions in the U.S.) the fees from start to finish start at about $20K on the low end (Ethiopia and China) and range to about $50K on the high end (Russia). And there is no guarantee that you’ll be actually be successful. One round of IVF is about $10K. Successive rounds are of course more expensive, but most clinics use frozen embryos to reduce the cost of subsequent attempts. Many clinics also offer shared cost arrangements: no pregnancy, no pay.
Adoption of older children domestically *is* less expensive, but by the time the dust settles you’re talking about $3-5K in fees depending on the state. Domestic adoption of infants is more expensive and it’s a lot harder to predict the costs. Because of “open” adoption arrangements, it really is a crapshoot as to when or if you’ll find a child to adopt. And that of course affects the cost.
There is a $10K tax credit available for adopting hard to place kids or orphans. So that mitigates some of the cost for international adoption and domestic adoption of older children. I don’t believe the credit is avaialble for domestic adoption of healthy infants.
“Having a child naturally isn’t a ‘cakewalk’ either. It also can be very expensive.”
Of course. But what we’re talking about here is not the cost of raising a child, it’s the cost of IVF versus adopting a child.
“Completely untrue. The “bulk of these kids” have not been “tortured.”
I guess you define beatings, burnings, and sexual abuse as something other than torture. That’s a semantics debate that I’m not going to bother with.
“Also completely untrue. Most of the children available for adoption are not “removed from abusive homes” but rather expelled by uncaring or incapable parents. You are losing all credibility here.”
Please cite statistics. The statistic that I remember indicated that the majority of children available for domestic adoption are there because parental rights have been terminated. I.e. they’ve been seized from abusive situations.
“In my experience, the adults who most often choose IVF are, despite their materialistic success, the ones least likely to be good parents.”
The cost of IVF has come down to the point where it’s accessible to folks of middle class means. I have a problem with casually dismissing folks who are considering IVF as being materialistic, poor potential parents, morally clueless, etc. What you’re saying may well be true, but it gets you nowhere. What have you offered to convince someone that IVF is not a good idea and that there are viable alternatives? Supporters of Opus Dei aren’t going to go into an IVF clinic in the first place.
You’ve hit on a real problem with the pro-life community in general. We’re very quick to provide lectures and moral judgments, but not so quick to provide workable solutions to quandaries that average people are facing.
“No one in the pro-life community has overlooked the ‘practical reason’ why infertile people insisting on a perfect baby are choosing IVF: it is because the vast majority of perfect babies that would otherwise be put up for adoption are instead being murdered in the womb.”
In most people’s minds, adoption is the last alternative after all other options have been exhausted. Including IVF. If we were to be so fortunate as to find infanticide made illegal tomorrow, I doubt it would have much of an impact on the IVF rate. I agree that it would make it a heck of a lot easier to adopt domestically if a person were so inclined.
“From you description it sounds like IVF is just an easier transaction for those looking to purchase another object.”
I doubt that anyone goes through IVF because they think it preferable to having a child through natural means.
“I would hope that most parents much prefer that small fear of a very unlikely occurance ...”
That’s one reason why international adoption has become so popular. The euphemism used is that the international process is “more straightforward.” Every would-be adoptive parent has heard horror stories about domestic adoptions being reversed after the fact. It’s something of an irrational fear in my view, but it’s a real one and it affects behavior.
“Almost every parents in America is trusting the courts right now to do the “right” thing in the event of a divorce related custody dispute.”
And their other choices are...? I wasn’t aware of a private alternative.
“Furthermore, most states have relatively good statutes in this area and none of the courts I’m familiar with are fabricating rights in this area out of whole cloth as has been done with abortion.”
They don’t need to create new law; American adoption laws already provide more rights to the birth parents than those of any other country that I’m aware of.
“Yet again I challenge your assertion. The burden of proof is on you to prove these because you made them.”
I’ve already met the burden of proof with data regarding the cost of adoption as opposed to IVF. Feel free to do a google search on “cost of IVF” if you want to check out the figures on your own. There is a clinic in the Chicago area which has a detailed list of costs IIRC. And then feel free to confirm the costs of adoption on any of the adoption websites. The figures I’m providing for adoption costs are ballpark, but are close. It depends on the agency you use. Bethany Christian has a good site.
What happened to your "bulk of these kids" [have been] "tortured". Either prove this absurd statement or retract it.
I honor the folks who adopt older kids, but it’s naive to think that most or even many would-be parents are equipped to deal with children coming from abusive circumstances.
You are doing nothing but fallaciously beating your own straw man argument.
Challenge away. If you’re talking about international adoptions...
None of the numbers you fabricated compare the expected cost and success rate of adoption versus IVF. Citations please if you want your words to matter.
“Having a child naturally isn’t a ‘cakewalk’ either. It also can be very expensive.” Of course. But what we’re talking about here is not the cost of raising a child,
My comment was in relation to the cost of actual child birth.
it’s the cost of IVF versus adopting a child.
You still haven't backed up your original statement with any actual facts.
“Completely untrue. The “bulk of these kids” have not been “tortured.” I guess you define beatings, burnings, and sexual abuse as something other than torture. That’s a semantics debate that I’m not going to bother with.
You need to back this insane straw man argument up with some citations or you will be ignored.
“Also completely untrue. Most of the children available for adoption are not “removed from abusive homes” but rather expelled by uncaring or incapable parents. You are losing all credibility here.” Please cite statistics.
This was in refutation to your absurd statement. The burder of proof is still on you for your prior claim.
The statistic that I remember indicated that the majority of children available for domestic adoption are there because parental rights have been terminated. I.e. they’ve been seized from abusive situations.
All you've done so far in this tread is fabricate unbelievable statistics to back your indefensible position. Your words are losing all meaning.
I have a problem with casually dismissing folks who are considering IVF as being materialistic, poor potential parents, morally clueless, etc.
I imagine you do since I fear this topic hits close to home for you.
You’ve hit on a real problem with the pro-life community in general. We’re very quick to provide lectures and moral judgments, but not so quick to provide workable solutions to quandaries that average people are facing.
Although I openly question your choice of the inclusive "we", adoption is a perfectly viable option in spite of all the false facts you have fabricated here against it.
In most people’s minds, adoption is the last alternative after all other options have been exhausted.
Although I challenge your assertion of a majority, I will agree that it would be at best the last alternative considered by the shallow narcissists I originally alluded to.
“From you description it sounds like IVF is just an easier transaction for those looking to purchase another object.” I doubt that anyone goes through IVF because they think it preferable to having a child through natural means.
The context was that it was easier than adoption.
“Almost every parents in America is trusting the courts right now to do the “right” thing in the event of a divorce related custody dispute.” And their other choices are...? I wasn’t aware of a private alternative.
Every patent of minor children in America lives under the threat of an invasive court system regardless of how they received their children.
They don’t need to create new law; American adoption laws already provide more rights to the birth parents than those of any other country that I’m aware of.
I would normally challenge this assertion but it is completely immaterial to this discussion.
“Yet again I challenge your assertion. The burden of proof is on you to prove these because you made them.” I’ve already met the burden of proof with data regarding the cost of adoption as opposed to IVF.
You haven't provided any data, only fabricated some fake numbers. When you posted to me using outside "facts" to bolster your weak argument in the midst of an ethical discussion, you opened yourself up to being called on them. I did so, and you still haven't provided any evidence to support your claims. You should either post some links that prove these "facts" or retract these totally unsupported statements you made. Otherwise you risk being branded as a liar.
Feel free to do a google search on “cost of IVF” if you want to check out the figures on your own.
I don't need to. You brought these statistics into this discussion so the burden is only on you.
The figures I’m providing for adoption costs are ballpark, but are close.
Without citation, they are merely lies made up by a poor debater with a losing argument.