Posted on 06/17/2007 6:54:37 PM PDT by Rodney King
Dude- I was joking when I said it, Coyote knows that- gotta lighten up- all in jest- no harm no foul
First of all, that bit (”The Argument”) by Monty Python is one of my favorite comedy sketches of all times. I first heard it in about 1973 or so on one of their albums, which I still have in my LP collection. It is one of the cleverest comedy sketches ever written, in my opinion.
As to why you cited it, I don’t know, because I would argue it applies to your side of this debate. I submitted for consideration the irrationality of the wild statements attributed to Jesus in the Bible regarding the efficacy of prayer. Your response was that I misinterpreted what Jesus was saying, arguing that Jesus said that prayer had to be “for him,” or some such nonsense. I pointed out that there is, in fact, no such qualification in his statements about prayer in Scripture. Your response now, referring to the Python colloquy about the definition of an argument, only proves my point. You have nothing to contradict my assertions, other than your insistence that the Bible says something other than the plain meaning of the words in it.
Exactly which passage are you referring to? The ones I am referring to do not contain your “in his name” qualification.
You make broad, sweeping statements suggesting there is proof of divine intervention in the world, yet there is no such proof, except in the imagination of you believers. You say that I “demand that we be able to ‘move mountains’ and ‘pray anything, and miracles will happen.” No, I don’t. Because I know it is physically impossible for us to do so, and — this is the key part — there is no reason to believe there will be any divine intervention (”miracle”) that will result in any of us moving a mountain. Yet that is precisely what Jesus said we could do — if we only “believe” in him. So, I say to you, since you “believe” in him — show us the power of prayer. Demonstrate for all of us how potent belief in Jesus is, and more importantly, prove that Jesus was telling the truth when he said anyone who has “faith” can throw a mountain into a sea. It’s ridiculous. What Jesus literally said was — whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours. So which amputees, having affirmed their faith in Jesus and God, have seen their limbs grow back? Hmmmmmm?
[You have nothing to contradict my assertions, other than your insistence that the Bible says something other than the plain meaning of the words in it.]
And you sir have nothign but an insistence that Christ’s implied meanings which should be obvious from a thorough reading of His teaching all during His walk on this earth doesn’t mean what it meant. you’re playing literalist when it suits you- when literalism is obviously not what Christ meant as explained thoroughly by Him, and you’re playing non literalist when it doesn’t suit you when literalism is obvious to anyone with a reasoning mind and a basic knowledge of the word. McArthur explained it bluntly, plainly, we’ve explained it, yet you want- no, make that NEED for Christ’s words to not contain His implied understandings so that you can prop up your dead argument and point at the Christian and laugh. This is a common tactic of folks who will beleive nothign and use everything, including literlism where no literalism is obviously warrented in order to malign the Christian faith.
If you need further proof that Jesus was speaking figuratively, and not talking about performing feats of supernatural acts Then here is yet another EXPERT on the bible explaining it in even greater detail to you. This is the words of a biblical Scholar- someone who devoted their entire lives to fully understanding God’s word- not just some casual reader who picked and chose what he liked and threw the rest out- He is explaining it to you in detail because He has studied God’s word in it’s entirety and undertands God’s word in the context of His WHOLE word. Your argument holds no water- it is finished.
Adam Clarke- noted biblical Scholar, and respected authoritive commentator on the bible:
“Mat 21:21 -
If ye have faith, and doubt not - See on Mat_17:20 (note). Removing mountains, and rooting up of mountains, are phrases very generally used to signify the removing or conquering great difficulties - getting through perplexities. So, many of the rabbins are termed rooters up of mountains, because they were dexterous in removing difficulties, solving cases of conscience, etc. In this sense our Lord’s words are to be understood. He that has faith will get through every difficulty and perplexity; mountains shall become molehills or plains before him. The saying is neither to be taken in its literal sense, nor is it hyperbolical: it is a proverbial form of speech, which no Jew could misunderstand, and with which no Christian ought to be puzzled.”
Jesus OFTEN spoke figuratively, yet. literalists liek yourself simply can’t accept that, and repeatedly point ot passages liek htis and demand that the Word be read literally- As I mentioend before- you and other literalists have a profound misunderstanding of God’s word, and a lack of educated understanding in regards to biblical times, Cultural customs etc, and you folk think you’ve trapped peopel when you try to point out passages that were never meant to be literally read- but it just shows a lack of understanding, and a deep desire to ignore explanations in order to have amunition you can then throw at Christians.
If you wish to go throuygh life believing God and Christ are frauds and liars or non existent, then that’s fien- As I said, We’ll agree to dissagree- but IF you chose to come out and beat a dead issue into the ground in an effort to publicly make a dead case that accuses My God, My Christ as liars and frauds, then expect to be challenged because I have much more than just a passing glancing knowledge of God’s word in it’s entire context- picking and choosing verses you think disprove God wil lget you into all kinds of trouble because you have taken them completely out of context- and I’ll point that out to you each time
[You make broad, sweeping statements suggesting there is proof of divine intervention in the world, yet there is no such proof, except in the imagination of you believers. You say that I “demand that we be able to ‘move mountains’ and ‘pray anything, and miracles will happen.” No, I don’t. Because I know it is physically impossible for us to do so, and — this is the key part — there is no reason to believe there will be any divine intervention (”miracle”) that will result in any of us moving a mountain. Yet that is precisely what Jesus said we could do — if we only “believe” in him. So, I say to you, since you “believe” in him — show us the power of prayer. Demonstrate for all of us how potent belief in Jesus is, and more importantly, prove that Jesus was telling the truth when he said anyone who has “faith” can throw a mountain into a sea. It’s ridiculous. What Jesus literally said was — whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours. So which amputees, having affirmed their faith in Jesus and God, have seen their limbs grow back? Hmmmmmm?]
You know what Buckeye? I’ve explaiend it in detail, as have others here, as have noted experts on the bible, and yet, incredibly, you continue to stomp your foot and insist it isn’t so- fine- go your merry way- I’m done playing silly little games with you- We’ve explained hte church age to you- We’ve explained that Christ was speaking to His elect disciples for VERY SPECIFIC purpose of introducing a new age, We’ve explained that miracles were ONLY meant for a select few such as the prophets, Christ, the disciples and NOT for everyone, we’ve tried to tell you the deeper meanings of God’s word, yet you insist on stomping that little foot of yours and insisting that Christ was speaking literally and was speaking to everyone when it’s obvious He wasn’t. If you can’t see the obvious, then I don’t know what to tell you, but I can tell you this- I won’t be playing this little game any longer.
YOU:"You are wrong. I don’t know which passage you are referring to"
John 14:13
And I will do whatever you ask in my name, so that the Son may bring glory to the Father.
John 14:14
You may ask me for anything in my name, and I will do it.
John 15:16
You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you to go and bear fruit—fruit that will last. Then the Father will give you whatever you ask in my name.
John 16:23
In that day you will no longer ask me anything. I tell you the truth, my Father will give you whatever you ask in my name.
John 16:24
Until now you have not asked for anything in my name. Ask and you will receive, and your joy will be complete.
John 16:26
In that day you will ask in my name. I am not saying that I will ask the Father on your behalf.
===========================
Now it goes against my better judgement to show you these, because I fully expect you to just crap all over them and start the whole "Argument Sketch" and just simply condradict me without offering any real substance, but you did say:
"I pointed out that there is, in fact, no such qualification in his statements about prayer in Scripture."
I say that there is, in fact, such qualification in his statements about prayer in scripture.
You are wrong, and I will explain why. Then, I intend to move on to other threads, as this one has pretty much been exhausted.
As I said in an earlier post, you wrote that I misinterpreted what Jesus was saying, arguing that Jesus said that prayer had to be “for him,” or some such nonsense. I pointed out that there is, in fact, no such qualification in his statements about prayer in Scripture. You cite quotes attributed to Jesus from the Book of John which state that prayer must be “in my name” (Jesus’s) and twist that into “for him” or “on behalf of Jesus.”
First, the biblical passages to which I was referring make no mention even of the “in my name” proviso to prayer. Let’s begin with Matthew 7:7-8, in which Jesus is quoted as follows:
“Ask, and it will be given you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you. For every one who asks receives, and he who seeks finds, and to him who knocks it will be opened.”
Nope, no “in my name” requirement there, according to the Gospel of Matthew. Everyone who asks receives, he says.
Matthew 17:20 Jesus reiterates that same message:
“For truly, I say to you, if you have faith as a grain of mustard seed, you will say to this mountain, ‘Move from here to there,’ and it will move; and nothing will be impossible to you.”
OK, Jesus says you have to have “faith,” and not much faith at that. Since a mustard seed is a tiny inanimate object about the size of a grain of salt, it is easy to see that the faith of a mustard seed is fairly small. So, Jesus’s point is that if you even have the tiniest bit of faith, you can move mountains. But, still, no need to pray “in his name.”
In case you think Jesus was speaking figuratively about moving mountains, he wasn’t. Read in Matthew 21:21-22 the following:
“I tell you the truth, if you have faith and do not doubt, not only can you do what was done to the fig tree, but also you can say to this mountain, ‘Go, throw yourself into the sea,’ and it will be done. If you believe, you will receive whatever you ask for in prayer.”
You can throw mountains into the sea, literally, Jesus said. Again, it takes “faith” that God will grant your prayer and you must not doubt that God will grant your prayer, i.e. you have to “believe” your prayer will be fulfilled. And not only can you pitch a mountain into the sea,you will receive WHATEVER you ask for in your prayer. That’s exactly what Jesus supposedly said, and, again, there is no mention of any need to ask for it “in Jesus’s name.”
Another apostle agrees. In fact, while none of the Gospels was likely written before 70 A.D., a generation or so after Jesus died, Christologists generally agree that the Gospel of Mark was written first. And guess what Jesus said according to Mark 11:24? He said:
“Therefore I tell you, WHATEVER you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours.”
Whoa, another evangelical claiming that Jesus said, basically, “You want it, you can have it, just close your eyes and “believe” you will get it? Yep, and not even a requirement the prayer be in Jesus’s name.
So, in sum, according to Matthew and Mark, prayers to God are granted to those who believe (with no doubt) God will grant the prayer. Granted, as you note, John wrote that Jesus added that the prayer must be “in Jesus’s name.” Why John disagreed with Matthew and Mark is anybody’s guess, but then most scholars view John as off on his own little agenda, and the Gospel of John as being the last of the gospels. In any event, all he added was that the praying person had to pray “in Jesus’s name.” The plain and unambiguous meaning of that is that the praying person needs to pray TO Jesus, or at least invoke the name of Jesus while praying to God. Nowhere does any biblical passage say that only prayers asking for something for Jesus’s benefit are granted.
Don’t bother quoting some Christian apologists who say Jesus did not mean “in my name” to be some “magic words,” or that God only grants prayers that please God. That’s not what Jesus said, according to Matthew and Mark. The apologists have to contort the literal meaning in the quotes attributed to Jesus to explain why prayer doesn’t work. Their explanation that “in my name” should not be literally interpreted, but rather should be figuratively interpreted, provides the apologist with the perfect “Catch 22” argument. It goes like this: I pray “in the name of Jesus” for a good friend or relative to recover from terminal cancer. I believe God will listen and grant my unselfish prayer for another, and of course, I live a virtuous life of great works and devotion to God and Jesus. My friend or relative dies of the cancer. Why was my prayer ignored? It wasn’t ignored, say the apologists. God and Jesus must have decided my prayer wasn’t “for Jesus,” so of course, it had to be turned down. Come on. Who are we kidding here? The correct answer is, prayers are never answered. If they seem to be, it is due to coincidence in a universe in which there is no deity.
[The correct answer is, prayers are never answered. If they seem to be, it is due to coincidence in a universe in which there is no deity.]
Lol- Yup- prayers are never answered- Hedge your bets and wager your soul on somethign that if you’;re wroing will bring eternal damnation- Don’t listen to all the testimonies of specifically answerec prayer- Keep being willfully ignorant of the scriptures and demand that Christ said somethign He didn’t as explained thoroughly, and keep betting that there is no God- Good bet- You’ve so much to gain if you’re wrong, the prize for being wrong is such a worthy endevour. Ypu Buckeye- Noone ever gets their prayers answered- and by Golly, a misinterpreatation of hte gospels is good solid proof of that lol- Yup- No God- No answered prayers- No nothign but hte lofty goal of life without God- it’ll do you wonders i nthe afterlife
Not at all. If one truly believes in Jesus (as the Son of God who brought us all an important message), then one will read scripture and know that it is those things we ask for in prayer (with a true heart for God's will for our lives) that we are promised by Jesus.
The Bible makes this abundantly clear. It is only unclear to those who try to use scripture selectively to argue against Jesus, and whose eyes are blinded by scales... just as Jesus said they would be.
;-/
...Terriyaki or Barbeque sauce?
;-/
That’s a tough choice. I like both terriyaki AND barbeque sauce. Can I get half and half?
I always get a laugh out of the stupid “hope you will like roasting in hell” comments by believers.
I would never say that, because I know that enjoyment of any kind is impossible in Hell. You say you "always" get a laugh out of the idea of Hell. You won't "always" get a laugh out of it, but I guess you might as well laugh while you can.
;-)
“I would never say that, because I know that enjoyment of any kind is impossible in Hell. You say you “always” get a laugh out of the idea of Hell. You won’t “always” get a laugh out of it, but I guess you might as well laugh while you can.”
Surely you are wrong. What I wrote was I always get a laugh out of the stupid “hope you will like roasting in hell” comments by believers. Which means that whenever someone says I am going to roast in hell, I always laugh. To be sure, there will come a time when I won’t laugh, because I’ll be dead, pushing up daisies, just like you will be eventually, and as a dead person, I won’t be aware of stupid comments by others about roasting in hell. The reason is a simple one: There is no such thing as “hell,” nor is there any “heaven.” Hope this helps clear up your confusion.
Of course, if you're right, I have lost nothing via my faith. If I'm right... well, we'll leave that for the future, eh?
;-/
“Well, one of us is probably correct. Be interesting to see who it is...
Of course, if you’re right, I have lost nothing via my faith. If I’m right... well, we’ll leave that for the future, eh?”
____________________________
Actually, I believe that when we die, we are met by a sugar plum fairy who escorts us to all we can eat at a huge buffet of assorted chocolate concoctions for our eternal delight. If I am wrong, I will have lost nothing. I will be rotting in the ground like everyone else. If I am right, however, you will miss out on dessert.
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