Posted on 06/12/2007 3:26:32 PM PDT by pissant
Evangelical prof 'bets' $100 TV star not active in church
Doubts continue to swirl over Fred Thompson's faith even among members of his own church.
First, Focus on the Family founder James Dobson was reported to have said the Republican presidential hopeful is not a real Christian. Thompson shot back that he's not only a Christian, but a member of the fundamentalist Churches of Christ.
Now a political science professor at a Church of Christ-affiliated college charges Thompson is a "lapsed member." And he has issued a challenge on the Internet to anyone who can come up with evidence that Thompson, now an actor, is active in the Church of Christ.
Is the Hollywood star-turned-politician a true believer?
Thompson's chances at capturing the GOP primary may rest on the answer, thanks to the growing electoral clout of Christian conservatives.
Professor Mark Elrod of Harding University said he doubts Thompson is "filling out an attendance card at a Church of Christ on Sundays."
The political scientist says he hasn't been able to find any information regarding the former senator's actual membership in a local congregation in his home state of Tennessee.
"In our tradition," Elrod said, "that's called 'being out of fellowship' or a 'lapsed member.'"
On his blog, the professor challenged the Church of Christ faithful to produce evidence they've seen Thompson "at an assembly of a Church of Christ (Stone-Campbell) in the last 20 years." So far nobody has met the challenge.
Specifically, Elrod is soliciting any information about Thompson having:
Taught a Bible class,
Presided at the Lord's table,
Served as a greeter,
Or led singing ("If it was 728b and you can prove it, I'll give you $100," he wagered, referring to the hymn, "Our God, He Is Alive," which is considered an anthem in the Churches of Christ).
A spokesman for Thompson, who's expected to formally announce his candidacy next month, said the actor-politician "is indeed a Christian. He was baptized in the Church of Christ."
A website listing adherents of the Churches of Christ suggests Thompson was "raised" in the church but may have fallen away as an adult.
However, the 106th Congressional Record listed his religious affiliation as "Church of Christ (Stone-Campbell)," which requires adult baptism by immersion for salvation.
WND has learned that the 64-year-old Thompson was baptized into Christ in the early 1950s at the First Street Church of Christ in Lawrenceburg, Tenn.
His mother, Ruth Thompson, regularly attends the Brentwood Church of Christ near Nashville, one of the most conservative Churches of Christ in the state. Fred Thompson is known to worship there when he visits his mother.
In 1997, Thompson spoke at a fund-raising event at Freed-Hardeman University in Henderson, Tenn. – another college affiliated with the Churches of Christ – where he was presented with a Bible. He and his parents have set up academic scholarships in their names there.
Sources say Thompson and former prosecutor and Church of Christ member Kenneth Starr became close last decade while investigating Clinton administration corruption.
Thompson led Senate hearings on the Chinagate fundraising scandal. He called Starr to testify before his committee, praising him for his convictions of various Clinton figures and defending him against "exceedingly personal and vituperative" attacks on his character by Clinton apologists.
Still, evangelical Christians have questioned whether Thompson is a true believer.
As WND reported, Dobson took issue with a U.S. News and World Report story quoting the conservative leader saying of Thompson, "Everyone knows he's conservative and has come out strongly for the things that the pro-family movement stands for, [but] I don't think he's a Christian; at least that's my impression."
According to a spokesman for Focus on the Family, Dobson had not not meant to disparage Thompson and was simply "attempting to highlight that to the best of his knowledge, Sen. Thompson hadn't clearly communicated his religious faith, and many evangelical Christians might find this a barrier to supporting him."
Dobson told reporter Dan Gilgoff he had never met Thompson and wasn't certain that his understanding of the former senator's religious convictions was accurate.
"Unfortunately, these qualifiers weren't reported by Mr. Gilgoff," the group's statement said. "We were, however, pleased to learn from his spokesperson that Sen. Thompson professes to be a believer."
While Dobson has expressed a willingness to take the Thompson claim at face value, Elrod's challenge indicates the question has not been answered satisfactorily within his denomination.
Thompson and his first wife, Sara Lindsey, divorced in 1985. The Church of Christ frowns on divorce, and believes only "fornication," or sexual infidelity, can be grounds for divorce and remarriage.
In 2002, Thompson and second wife, Jeri Kehn, were married in the liberal United Church of Christ, not the ultra-conservative Churches of Christ to which Thompson claims to belong.
Thompson nonetheless is polling well among conservatives and older men, according to a new AP-Ipsos survey. One in four of his supporters cites his strong character, more than any other GOP candidate.
Thompson is already polling high among the GOP field, and is tied for second with Sen. John McCain behind frontrunner former New York Mayor Rudy Giuliani, the AP poll shows.
Political strategists say Thompson would likely have to distance himself from the Churches of Christ in a general election bid. Democratic candidate Hillary Clinton, in particular, could make hay of his affiliation with the church, which restricts women's role in the worship service.
"There are some things women are not allowed to do," explained Church of Christ preacher David Pharr, who graduated from Freed-Hardeman College in Tennessee. "They are not allowed to pray, teach or even ask questions when such would be usurping authority over men."
Last year, CNN and other media described the Church of Christ as a "cult" that oppresses women after a preacher's wife, Mary Winkler, shot her husband in the back in Tennesee. The church denies being a cult.
He might not have realized it was not a Church of Christ. I did not understand what the Universal Church was until I learned it was a cult and grew out of the Boston Movement and I have been a member all my life.
***Only one heathen on here that I am aware of.***
You say the sweetest things.
I read later that Fred himself contacted Dotson and told him that he understood this was all a misunderstanding and not to worry about it. Very impressive.
It is good to see a few on here who actually have any knowledge of the Church of Christ. Most seem to rely on what they heard from their wife’s uncle’s friend’s, boss.
Thank you for your post.
I could get into a discussion on instrumental music but is it really worth it?
Gee, since when does there have to be a band in order to praise the Lord?
Such a minor thing. The only reason they don’t is because the Bible did not mention having instrumental music in the worship service in the New Testament description of the church. If it had mentioned instruments they would be included. But, the church tries to pattern itself as the Bible says for a church to be - elders, deacons, etc.
There is dissension in the church with the young wanting instrumental music - some move in that direction.
In my opinion it is a minor thing - but one that leads to other major changes. And it leads to usurping the worship service for a free stage for egos. It leads to members merely watching as entertainment, not participating. And it becomes a distraction allowing some to “perform” while some are deemed only watchers.
Why would man want to draw attention to himself rather than to God? It comes down to ego and the desire for man to please himself rather than the desire to please God.
I like that one. It reminds me of a simiilar one. Two novices were in the seminary. First one walks up to the Prior and asks, "Prior, is it ok if I smoke while I pray"? The Prior responds, "ofcourse not. Have you no self discipline?". The second novice walks up to the Prior and asks, "Prior, is it ok if pray while I smoke"? The Prior respond, "ofcourse, we should always be praying".
Weird? Only if you call Christians who try and follow Jesus odd.
Who cares what the world thinks of us - we are told the world will hate us just as they hated Jesus.
What do you mean shape notes? Is that just written music with the key, notes and words as in the hymn books or something different?
Shape notes is a new term for me.
I am amazed at how beautiful the singing is when all sing fully and participate. Amazing all the beautiful voices, bass, alto, tenor and soprano on the hymns with the repeating groups, and other parts. Then on the especially heartfelt ones, someone belts out an “Amen”.
Over time, all open up and sing fully - it is really beautiful especially when you have the super sopranos with their clear, pretty voices. Me, I’m just trying not to go up too far when all else are going low.
Right - the instruments drown all that out.
Have you ever noticed in hymnals (especially older ones) that the notes aren’t all round? They are different shapes. Each shape is equivalent to a note on the scale. People learned to read the shapes instead of understanding how to read music. Mother Maybelle Carter (June Carter Cash’s mother) mentions learning to sing using shape notes in the movie Walk the Line. The wiki definition is a good overview. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shape_note
Npo, the UCC is not a cult. You are probably thinking of the UUA. The UCC is a collection of Calvinist, congregational churches. In fact, a fore-runner of the UCC (before a merger with the Evangelical and Reformed Church) included both the Massachusetts Bay Colony Puritans and the Plymouth Colony Pilgrims. However, the UCC member congregations are very, very, very independent of each other; far moreso than even Southern Baptists which hammer out beliefs regularly at (non-binding) Conferences. Hence, member churches range from borderline non-Christian to churches hardly distinct from Southern Baptists’.
There have been some efforts to minimize left-wing fringe beliefs:
>>According to a 2004 speech by current president John Thomas, “a group of prominent United Church of Christ theologians set forth an agenda as urgent today as it was then: Convinced as we are that our church, along with the American churches generally, is excessively accommodated to cultural values and perceptions, our thinking revolved around the conviction that the ministry of the church must become more intentional and disciplined in teaching the faith of the church, in valuing its theological tradition and in responding to the present place of the church in culture.” <<
Although the Churches of Christ is distinct from the United Church of Christ, the similarity in names is no accident. And, in fact, Thompson’s answer to the question of his religion matches neither name precisely. He says, “Church of Christ,” not “Churches of Christ,” or “United Church of Christ.”
Thompson’s upbringing was Churches of Christ. But Church es of Christ condemns divorce. It seems quite plausible that he found a UCC church which was less strict, but still solidly Christian and at least tolerant of conservative political beliefs.
The article states that he was married at a UCC church. I find this neither scandalous nor hard to believe. But from an AP article, “Thompson, 59, has known Kehn, 35, since they met on the Fourth of July in 1996. The couple is departing this weekend for France for a honeymoon.
... The couple was married at the First Congregational United Church of Christ in the Illinois town where the bride’s parents live. The Rev. Gregory Schneck-Skiba presided and only about a dozen guests were invited to the small family ceremony.”
So it is OK for self professed Christians to place bets.
I did not know that Jesus approved of gambling but hell what do I know.
Count me in that not voting for McCaniac crowd.
I think you are confusing the UCC with the International Church of Christ (ICC). It is the ICC that came out of mainline churches of Christ as the Crossroads and later Boston movements. The ICC is a cult, and the fact that they used brainwashing techniques has been proven. I can probably find the links to support boards for former members where they discuss being deprogrammed if you are interested. I have a friend who got sucked in. It was awful. The ICC generally has one congregation in each city and gives itself the name of the city, e.g., Chicago Church of Christ. There were not very many left in the U.S. the last time I checked.
I think the confusion is between UCC and International Church of Christ (ICC). It is the ICC that is/was a cult.
I think Beck and Hannity both have an agenda... Rudy Rudy Rudy.
They are so obsessed with the Hillary Factor, it’s absurd.
Gee - terrible when even members of the church do not know all the variations of the name around.
Will be even more confusing as Churches of Christ churches decide to remove the “Church of Christ” from their names so that they too can be anything they wish with no limitations of how “loose” they are.
Thanks for the explanation of “shape” notes.
I do love our singing at my current church. Although the “chosen frozen” of us sure eye the “happy clappers” and nearly fall out of the pews trying to see where those raised hands are coming from.
Do you remember the days when we only whispered about the “Boston Movement”? No one would ever openly talk about it.
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