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To: Mr. Silverback
“Here’s a clue for you: Words mean things, and that sentence means that the lyrics advocate the killing of civilians. Nice try.”

What do you think those lyrics mean? They are a “hymn” stating that the Army of the Potomac was the Army of God and was going to stomp out the South. That’s EXACTLY what it means.

“Read Lincoln’s Second Inaugural and then ask yourself what the grapes of wrath is all about.”

He doesn’t address the hymn or those who supported the idea - popular in some avenues of the North - to so punish the South that it would amount to genocide. Of course, Lincoln didn’t agree with that, but that doesn’t change the attitude in others.

“He is trampling out the vintage where the grapes of wrath are stored”

Killing the enemy is justified, as it’s God’s punishment.

“I can read His righteous sentence by the dim and flaring lamps”

God's judgement has been passed on the enemy.

“As ye deal with My contempters, so with you My grace shall deal”

If you kill the enemy, you serve God and go to heaven.

“I have read the fiery gospel writ in burnished rows of steel”

Not exactly Christian, here, either.

Certainly, no Christian hymn. Of course, it was written by the wife of a John Brown supporter in on the Harpers Ferry Raid.

We can debate the lyrics, but do so actually reading them in their proper context of 1861 and without the childishness. Words do mean things. Just like these words.

Many songs lose their proper context. “This Land is Your Land” was written by a Communist, yet some consider it “American”.

547 posted on 05/24/2007 3:58:58 PM PDT by FredHunter08 (Guiliani! Come and Take Them!)
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To: FredHunter08

I notice you left out the line, “As He died to make men holy, let us die to make men free.”


551 posted on 05/24/2007 4:20:30 PM PDT by Bubba Ho-Tep
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To: FredHunter08
We can debate the lyrics, but do so actually reading them in their proper context of 1861 and without the childishness.

Childishness? Oh my, are you getting the vapors or something?

They are a “hymn” stating that the Army of the Potomac was the Army of God and was going to stomp out the South.

Yes, and it was written in 1861, a time when everyone believed that stomping would take place between armies on a battlefield. Sherman would not be marching on Savannah for almost 3 years. So, there goes your idea of Howe promoting civilian deaths, which would be ludicrous even if the song had been written over Christmas in Savannah by Sherman himself.

Killing the enemy is justified, as it’s God’s punishment.

Written during a war, and used as a marching song by warriors. Again, nothing about civilians. Though the Civil War was tragic and both sides prayed to the same God, it is delusional to think someone is acting like a jihadist if they go to fight a culture based on slavery and they think that might have something to do with the mission of the God who freed the Hebrews, and later the entire human race. John Calvin once said that the soldier in just war is a minister of love because he restrains evil.

Not exactly Christian, here, either.

Why is the word "gospel" not capitalized? Well, that's because when the word is not capitalized it means a tale meant to change an opinion. And though this will likely enrage you, calling it unchristian to desire the defeat of a slave state is your opinion, not doctrine. We and other nations have carried "a fiery gospel writ in burnished rows of steel" to other nations that were doing the works of darkness when it was necessary. Again, Calvin is right.

Here's where we come to the fun part:

“As ye deal with My contempters, so with you My grace shall deal” If you kill the enemy, you serve God and go to heaven.

Oh, sorry, you messed up there. As we've discussed, words mean things. And the word "contemn" means "to treat or regard with disdain, scorn, or contempt." So, God, in Howe's hymn, is saying that He will give mercy to those who show mercy to those who scorn Him. Then it goes on to say that it is the Hero born of woman who must crush the serpent.

So, just in case you're keeping score, you're now trying to say that a song written before total war, that tells those singing it to show mercy, is a set of instructions to kill Southern civilians. You've even "supported" that view by saying that a crucial line says the exact opposite of what it really says. I can only say "Oops!"

He doesn’t address the hymn or those who supported the idea - popular in some avenues of the North - to so punish the South that it would amount to genocide.

Having trouble with linear thought again, eh? What I said was that Lincoln's address...well, addressed, the grapes of wrath. I never said it mentioned Howe's song, and the whole "genocide" idea is yours alone. Here's the pertinent section:

Neither party expected for the war the magnitude or the duration which it has already attained. Neither anticipated that the cause of the conflict might cease with or even before the conflict itself should cease. Each looked for an easier triumph, and a result less fundamental and astounding. Both read the same Bible and pray to the same God, and each invokes His aid against the other. It may seem strange that any men should dare to ask a just God's assistance in wringing their bread from the sweat of other men's faces, but let us judge not, that we be not judged. The prayers of both could not be answered. That of neither has been answered fully. The Almighty has His own purposes. 'Woe unto the world because of offenses; for it must needs be that offenses come, but woe to that man by whom the offense cometh.' If we shall suppose that American slavery is one of those offenses which, in the providence of God, must needs come, but which, having continued through His appointed time, He now wills to remove, and that He gives to both North and South this terrible war as the woe due to those by whom the offense came, shall we discern therein any departure from those divine attributes which the believers in a living God always ascribe to Him? Fondly do we hope, fervently do we pray, that this mighty scourge of war may speedily pass away. Yet, if God wills that it continue until all the wealth piled by the bondsman's two hundred and fifty years of unrequited toil shall be sunk, and until every drop of blood drawn with the lash shall be paid by another drawn with the sword, as was said three thousand years ago, so still it must be said 'the judgments of the Lord are true and righteous altogether'.

That's the grapes of wrath.

723 posted on 05/25/2007 6:32:35 AM PDT by Mr. Silverback (A pacifist sees no distinction between the arsonist and the fireman--Freeper ccmay)
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