Posted on 05/08/2007 4:52:02 AM PDT by vahet pole
Responding to Russia’s bullying of Estonia (see EDM, April 27, May 1, 3) the U.S. White House has invited Estonian President Toomas Ilves to meet with U.S. President George W. Bush on June 25 in Washington. The invitation itself, and the announcement’s timing in May, is the strongest demonstration of support for Estonia against Russia’s escalating threats since April 26. Estonia’s presidential office as well as the ambassador to the United States, Juri Luik, remarked that the invitation validates Estonia’s policy choices: democracy and freedom as Western values at home, participation in NATO-led peacekeeping missions, and assistance to countries in the European Union’s eastern neighborhood.
Bush and Ilves last met in late November 2006 in Tallinn, two months after Ilves’ election as president. The scheduling of another presidential meeting only six months after the first, particularly with a small country, is a highly unusual move by the White House, signaling U.S. backing for Estonia all the more clearly in the present crisis.
Speaking at the May 5 commemoration of a U.S. diplomat killed by the Soviet military while over flying Estonia in 1940, U.S. Undersecretary of State Nicholas Burns noted that free Estonia’s sovereignty is once again under attack. The entire U.S. government regards Estonia as a friend and ally and respects Estonia’s right to make its decisions independently in a free country, Burns noted. These unprecedently strong statements seem designed to discourage Russian escalation and adventurism in Estonia.
On May 2 the U.S. Senate passed a resolution condemning the riots in Estonia and attacks on Estonian embassies and supporting Estonia’s right to deal with internal matters, such as the relocation of the Red Army monument from Tallinn.
(Excerpt) Read more at jamestown.org ...
This thread has lost track.
There are people who want to re-write history, skew the facts and mischaracterize people and events some of which is totally irrelevant to the issue.
It is completely understandable that every time a symbol is being removed or erected the two opposite sides clash in emotional debate about whether doing so is right or wrong. Be it a memorial statue, a plaque with 10 commandments or a confederate flag.
In this case it was the Estonian people’s desire to relocate this particular statue that they deemed inappropriate in it’s current location. Public voted, National Assembly Voted, Parliament and the President approved.
The violence that erupted has very little to do with honoring the fallen Soviet troops. It was orchestrated by Russian nationalist movement with the moral support from the Kremlin.
What is not being talked about is the history of this particular statue.
Tallinn - December 21, 1944.
The Germans had fled the town. There was gathering of the 8th Estonian Tallinn Rifle Corps of the Red Army outside the city led by Lt. General Lembit Pärn. The primary objective was to liberate Tallinn by the next morning. It was an important political objective that Tallinn will be liberated by Estonian units before the Russian Red Army arrived. There was a concern that the eager Russian troops would start looting, raping and destroying the city upon their arrival.
Meanwhile the Estonian Defense forces left behind by withdrawing German troops decided not to defend Tallinn against Soviet Army.
In the morning hours of September 22, the Tallinn was taken by the 8th Rifle Corps without any resistance while closing Russian troops where encountering minor scattered resistance in the countryside.
Every decent Soviet City must have a statue commemorating the liberation and including multiple graves. The statue was a not an issue so in 1947 the Bronze Soldier was placed at the strategically selected location. But the grave issue remained. No resistance, no shooting, no bodies. So they decided to declare 5 fallen soldiers as heroes of the Liberation although the actually died near a town of Kahala some 28 miles away on 09/21/44. 3 of the 5 names were engraved to the plaque immediately. They were Lance Corporal Dmitri Belov, Colonel Constantin Kolesnikov and Captain Ivan Serkov.
The other 2 names remained unknown until in 1975 they mysteriously appeared in a newspaper article. They were Lt. Colonel Mikhail Kulikov and Captain Ivan Sossoyev. Why did it take almost 30 years to reveal the names those high ranking officers remains unknown.
There is some speculation that there were additional casualties near Kahala. Cavalry Major Vassili Kuznetsov, Leutenant Vassili Volkov and Capten Alexei Bryantsev simply because there were no other battles anywhere else that day (09/21/44).
So that’s a total of 8 men. There was suppose to be 14 graves - although today we know that only 12 have been found during the excavations. Where did the rest come from?
The bodies came from yet another location - Raasiku where a paratroopers from 152th tank battalion from Leningrad were chasing withdrawing Germans. There was only one casualty Sergeant Stepan Hapikalo who was also buried near the Bronze Statue.
One more soldier was found from 30th artillery division - Vassili Davidov. The circumstances of his death are not known.
3 more to go.
A woman was needed. Her name was Yelena Varshavskaya, a Sergeant Major of a medical unit. The plaque says that she died September 22 1944 in Tallinn. There were no battles that day. Legend has that she died as a rape victim in the hands of her own comrades although this cannot be confirmed. She had to have been buried at the site separately, on a later date.
It is totally unknown who were the last 2 victims - Lt. Colonel Kotelnikov and Lieutenant Lukanov. There is no military record and no first names.
This is not the all of the mystery. The burial ceremonies have been described only by Soviet historians. No verifiable witnesses have ever been found.
Ret. Colonel Ilmar Paul claimed in 1972 that in September 22, 1944 there was a ceremony of the burial of Colonel Mikhail Kulikov and Colonel Constantin Kolesnikov and several other comrades. He did not state who the others were.
If Col. Kulikov was buried with a ceremony that day, why was his name not known for almost 30 years along with his comrade Ivan Sossoyev? Or was there something to cover up?
A firm rumor has existed which claims that there was a quiet burial in the middle of the night of September 22 when 3 “looters” were laid to rest. Looters?
The alcohol factory Liviko history books reveal an interesting bit. “The withdrawal of the German troops in September of 1944 was rushed. There was no time to destroy the inventory or the factory’s production lines. There was no reported looting in the city that night. Only one incident is known where a handful of thieves tried to sneak into the factory. After Colonel Võrk (8th Estonian Tallinn Rifle Corps) had secured the factory and ordered to open fire at the looters, the further attempts stopped.”
Three looters were reportedly killed under those orders.
So it is reasonable to believe that comrades Kulikov and Sossoyev may have been among the three.
The mysterious 14th person that was supposedly buried there is Alexander Grigorov. The date of his death has been marked March 7th of 1945. That’s over 5 months later. Why was his body brought to Tallinn and why was he buried at the Bronze Soldier site is not known. It is also unknown why was he later exhumed and re-buried in Kaliningrad.
Final note - there was no Estonian nationals buried at that site despite the fact that it was the Estonian Rifle Corps who arrived in Tallinn first.
As you see folks, there is more than plenty of controversy here. Soviets erected this statue purely for political reasons. They had no respect for the truth nor the fallen soldiers.
Americans didn’t fight for communist tyranny like the rapist dogs who served Stalin.
Stand tall, Estonia. We’ve got your back.
Americans didn’t fight for communist tyranny like the rapist dogs who served Stalin.==
It is shame on you Joe. I though that you are the man but had mistaken. Really you is sob.
“And as I recall they say in soviet history books that the soviet tropps crosed polish borcder in 1939 just for same reason. To defend Ukranian and Belorus minorities.”
Too bad that it wasn’t Ukraininan or Belarussian army which entered. Actually Poles thought that Russians came to help with Germans. Until they started to plunder, rape and kill men, women and children, and that’s a whole lot of a difference.
“Just consider. Poland lots 6 mlns during 5 years of nazi occupation, right? So what if that nazi occupation continued until now? My guess we hadn’t no Poles left to now. But because of those soviet soldiers crushed hitlerites we see no bold and ungratifing Poland.”
Poland lost 90% of it’s soldiers during the war not occupation itself. Nazis considered Slavs to be the the weaker part of “Arians” and did not want to exterminate us.
Poles killed during occupation were the ones who were helping Jews or guerillas.
Russians killed ten’s of millions of Poles, although most of them in years 1939 - 1956,polish people were sent to Lubianka until 1989.. not many of them came back.
Soviet veteran dogs march with blessing of the neo-Soviet Chekist Putin regime,==
Ididotism speaks.
He called !Russian! veterans dogs.
I’ll say it loud: He is more or less right period
Russians killed ten’s of millions of Poles, although most of them in years 1939 - 1956,polish people were sent to Lubianka until 1989.. not many of them came back.==
Wild imagination:). DO you think it helps you cause if you lie on Russia?
He called !Russian! veterans dogs.
I’ll say it loud: He is more or less right period==
You simply lost you mind to russophobic propaganda:). It is your problem.
Actually, being ridiculled by a Soviet-lover (Homo Sovieticus that is) you are, only strenghtens my opinion.
Unfortunately I won’t be able to straighten all your lies you are going to post here in the next few days, since I’ll be away (playing at University Soccer Championship), so you can freely go on a posting rampage.
All Red Army maggots must hang. :)
Actually, being ridiculled by a Soviet-lover (Homo Sovieticus that is) you are, only strenghtens my opinion.
Unfortunately I won’t be able to straighten all your lies you are going to post here in the next few days, ==
Accually YOU posted the lie here: “Russians killed ten’s of millions of Poles, although most of them in years 1939 - 1956”. It is not a fact you have no prove for that so it is a lie.
All Red Army maggots must hang. :)==
I thought that you are adult but you behave like 13 year old. Seems to me you somehow lost your cool:).
But the bottom line of you attitude still is that no country, big or small should ever disagree with Mother Russia and if so, economical and political war is warranted.
Why don’t you just say that it’s OK for Russia to invade the Baltics once again. Isn’t that how you really feel?
You’re constantly trying to differentiate between “Russian” and “Soviet”. ==
Of cause Sobviet Union was the international state which was rulled NONRussians. It is true considering the facts. Th efisrt ever Russian leader of USSR was Gorbachev who ended it.
But the bottom line of you attitude still is that no country, big or small should ever disagree with Mother Russia and if so, economical and political war is warranted.==
BUT what about you? What you do if you see that some countries constatnly try to make some dirties toward your country? Do you like them? I doubt it.
Of cause Russians don’t like when some countries whihc was fred by thier dissolution of Soviet Union constantly attack Russia with some stupid and untrue pretensions.
You strange guy. You allow your kins do any dirty trick on Russia then cry out loud if Russia answers you.
_Of cause Russians don’t like when some countries whihc was fred by thier dissolution of Soviet Union constantly attack Russia with some stupid and untrue pretensions._
What kind of attack are you talking about?
Russia’s melodramatic response is ridiculous. You must feel insecure, threatened by a nation of 1.3 million. Pathetic!
Russia’s melodramatic response is ridiculous. You must feel insecure, threatened by a nation of 1.3 million. Pathetic!==
Insecured?- No. Irritated by constant violation of rights of Russian minority there and by the SS supporters in Estonia goverment? -Yes.
It’s pointless to argue with him - you username says it all! :)
Jah, Sul on õigus.
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