Posted on 04/08/2007 11:39:14 PM PDT by freedomdefender
“1652 years if you want to be exact. look it up.”
Plato: 428/427 BC – 348/347 BC
Math not your best subject I am guessing?
Not my math.
http://www.unmuseum.org/atlantis.htm
Uuum... you realize that BC and AD are different right?
I don't buy your argument. If that was the case I can ask...How do we know that George Washington crossed the Delaware? We have no living eyewitnesses to cross-examine. All we have are written accounts supposedly written by early contemporaries. It's just a myth that we have to take on faith. At the time he was supposed to have crossed the Delaware, he was actually vacationing down in Florida.
“Not my math.”
Try closer to 2350 years ago... not 1600. Do you know what BC means?
“Uuum... you realize that BC and AD are different right?”
lol
Most people who walked past the blind man every day, and then one day saw him healed did not come to believe. Many who knew Lazarus was dead and saw Jesus raise him didn't believe when it became clear that Christ wasn't here to overthrow the Romans. According to the bible many who saw the miracles with their own eyes still didn't believe.
Our society is no different today.
“OK, OK already. My math was off. You guys are being so Analytical you are ignoring the point I was trying to make which is - millions of people are willing to believe their was an Atlantis because of it being mentioned in a piece of historic literature. And yet many of these same people refuse to believe Jesus was who he said he was.”
There’s a point in there somewhere?
Many things are written. SOme beople believe some, some believe others. You can’t really draw a lesson from that in the way you intend to.
I just asked Him [Jesus] if He was still alive? He replied yes I am.
I think the term “proves” is being used incorrectly here. I’m not sure anything can be scientifically “proved.”
“• Sixth, why would the disciples die for a lie? We see in the Gospels that they were basically cowards. Why did these timid lambs suddenly change into the lions of the faith? Yes, people die for what they believe is true, but people do not die for what they know is NOT true. History says all of the disciples died for their faith except John.”
I think this point was missed by some above. Yes, crazy islamoterrorists die for what they believe to be true. But why would the Apostles die horrible deaths for something they knew to be untrue. They were there. If he didn’t rise again, why the zeal to die for a lie? It’s a fairly compelling argument.
BTW, I could care less becasue I believe with my faith and heart. If we had conclusive evidence all but the most dense of morons would be Christians. It was meant to be a matter of faith.
No, it doesn't require "faith" to read the references to Christ in ancient historians like Tacitus. Or to note the martyrs' deaths suffered by early followers of Jesus. This is evidence. Yes, faith informs what conclusions you draw from the evidence -- but in a sense, that's true of all historical investigation of the ancient world.
Certainly many people have become Christians without any reference to evidence related to Christ from ancient historical sources. But there are many people who have come to Christ based in part on their study of the evidence, and the faith-inspired conclusions that they've derived from the evidence. One example is Frank Morrison, a lawyer - I believe - who started out to write a book refuting the resurrection, but who was persuaded by the evidence to become a believer. He wrote the book, “Who moved the Stone.”
They obviously believed something and weren't going to abandon their belief.
Likewise, the early Christians who said they had encountered Jesus risen from the dead, were so persuaded that they had seen him, that they were willing to die. Just as victims of the Inquisition weren't dying for a lie - they actually held their beliefs, they weren't pretending - so it is not illogical to suppose that the apostles who said they saw the risen Christ, BELIEVED they saw him - because they were willing to be put to death rather than change their story.
If you believe that Jesus really existed - on earth, in time, in our dimension - and walked alongside human beings; and if you believe he was crucified and resurrected - and that it wasn't all a hallucination - then it stands to reason that there could be evidence that all this happened, just as there can be evidence for anything else that happened in history. We have evidence that Julius Ceasar lived, ruled and conquered. I you believe that Jesus lived - and was resurrected - it is entirely plausible that there can be evidence, historical evidence. And there is.
Yes, but in the case of Christianity there is real and solid evidence that is consistent with, and supports, belief.
There are no ancient works which even approach the vast manuscribal holdings of the new testament. Nothing in extant body of Greek or Roman classics even comes close.
What other cultures from this period 1500-1200BC have an account of the children of Atreus beseiging Troy--Iliad?
These historians mentioned the Cult of Christianity and some of it’s beliefs, that’s true. But these people also mention things like dragons, magical lands and curses/hexes.
Which letter of Pliny's mentions dragons, etc? Tacitus Annals? Tacitus is an extra-biblical source that does corroberate that christians were worshipped Jesus (Christus). It was Plato who has Socrates making reference to "Atlantis", if I'm not mistaken.
...but there are still many people who believe Elvis is alive.
I know that many worship Elvis, but we know where his body lies. The Romans could have easily dispelled the "myth" by producing the body, torturing and interrogating the Roman detail responsible for keeping a lid on this. But they did not. It's not clear what treatment befell the Roman guard. My guess is it wasn't pretty.
There are thousands of people who have seen Bigfoot, UFOs and the Loch Ness Monster as well - that doesn’t necessarily mean any of those things exist either...even when they produce pictures, hair samples, burn marks, etc.
Of course none of this discounts the eyewitness testimonies where hundreds shared this experience. Bigfoot sightings are isolated events. UFOs and similar phenomena may have multiple witnesses and justify physical explanation. (We had the "Lights of Phoenix" a few years back. I saw it. I don't know what it was. However, had I seen a resurrected Jesus, that would be unmistakable and hard to explain, if I had witnessed his savage torture and execution.)
Baptism isn’t a new idea. ...The idea of having a sacred meal as a part of a ritual isn’t a new idea either. Gods connected with the harvest were often symbolically “eaten” at rituals honoring them.
The Jews have celebrated the Passover, since leaving Egypt, with a sabath meal.
Yet, if one's favorite is killed and shown to be a fraud, then it would be the height of disillusionment to use Baptism as a from of "recognition" with a resurrected Christ. Nor would there be any legitimate need to change the meaning of the passover meal in "rememberance" of a proven fake. Yet the early eyewitnesses faithfully kept these ordinances and preserved them as instructed by Jesus himself.
Right now there are suicide bombers training to die in the name of Allah: a god that the Christians reject.
The depth of selfish motivation is remarkable. But Jesus said "Greater love has no one than this, that one lay down his life for his friends." Christian martyrs suffer to bring the gospel to a dying world, a world they wish to befriend. Their reward is already earned through Jesus' incomparable work, not any sacrifical act on their part.
Early Christians also tended to blend their religion with older pagan beliefs - pagan temples were converted to Christian Churches, many pagan dieties became “Saints” and pagan practices like the Easter Bunny and Christmas trees were adopted.
This charge is often layed against historial Christianity. It may be true of some Catholic practices, but Protestant christianity ascribes to sola fide, sola gratia, sola scriptura. I am a "saint" (hagios--a "set apart one") as all believers are (Romans 1:7).
I don't ever recall worshipping the easter bunny or incorporating the practice as part of resurrection observance. (Passover is the concurrent religious practice the resurrection answers).
Syncretism worked both ways. The 2nd century worship of Mythras probably borrowed heavily from Christianity. What is known about Mithras is a "mystery!" Not much to go on. (Mithras)
After the Emperor Constantine was baptised on his death bed (after saying prayers to ALL gods, lest he go to hell) that Church leaders took over declaring that Christianity was the official religion of the Empire. Thus getting rid of pagans became the order of the day. Many peasants suddenly found themselves forcefully converted by their governors and aristocratic overlords.
Now this reeks of syncretism (adopting/incorporating existing pagan practices). I can find nothing in the New Testament which condones "getting rid of pagans" or "forcefully converting" them. If you could provide a Bible reference, I'd I have to listen.
Interesting thread. Just thought I would throw in this gem that came from the mouth of my 7 year-old yesterday before chruch:
“Hey, Jesus is risen. Let’s get the party started!!”
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