Posted on 04/02/2007 11:47:20 AM PDT by jhpigott
April 2, 2007 Possible problems with Position of Indian Ship?
Let me start by saying that I am not querying the coordinates (29 degrees 50.36 minutes North 048 degrees 43.08 minutes East) for the Indian merchant vessel given by the UK MOD. In the British version the incident took place at that vessel. They said that the Indian vessel was anchored at these coordinates for two days.
By contrast the Iranian government has given four different coordinates, allegedly referring not to a single incident but to the course of the Royal Naval vessels.
My point has been all along that the precise coordinates are a red herring, because the maritime boundary has never been agreed. There is therefore no clear "line" you can be one side or the other of.
But I have been contacted now by three independent people - two claiming experience as mariners - to make the following point. To the best of my ability I have checked it out, but I am not a qualified navigator. I am not claiming that the following is correct - it is put forward as a problem, not a solution. I am appealing for assistance from those technically equipped to throw any light on this problem.
The MOD claimed that the Indian merchant vessel was anchored "in the channel". But these coordinates are over a nautical mile further West (ie towards Iraq) than the channel. That bit I am quite certain of.
The mystery is this. On British nautical maps, 29 degrees 50.36 minutes North 048 degrees 43.08 minutes East is 100 yards above the low water line. That is to say it dries out at low tide. The vessel pictured by the MOD is a substantial merchant vessel. No captain of such a vessel would knowingly take his vessel to such a position, let alone anchor it there for two days. In fact legally those coordinates are on land.
As always, it is a bit more complex than that. British charts use the Lowest Astronomical Tide - that is the furthest the tide normally goes out in a year. So on British charts the vessel is 100 yards above the low water mark when the tide is at its lowest. US charts, which show a more normal low tide, show it as being just below the low water line. But that still puts it in very shallow water indeed.
Consider this. There is very little tide in the Gulf. The highest tidal range there is a vertical fall of only nine feet, and that is closer to the Arabian sea. Perhaps someone can find the draught of the Indian vessel when it left port (Lloyds List should have this). But it was laden with cars. I cannot conceive of it having a draught of less than twelve feet, possibly a good lot more.
In short, unless I am missing something very important, it looks like it would be very hard to get that Indian vessel to those coordinates at high tide, and it would certainly ground at low tide, pretty well at any time of year.
Before we leap to any conclusions, I can see at least three other possible explanations:
The mud and sands have shifted substantially since the charts were made, or it has been radically dredged
Sea levels in the Gulf at the time in question were, for some reason, unusually high; perhaps with some very local effect from very high outflow from the rivers
Neither the people who contacted me nor I can read a chart properly
What I am looking for are technical contributions to explain the alleged problem. Until we have clarified that, I would be grateful if the political pundits could hold fire. I am not saying that the coordinates were wrong, or that the ship could not be in that position.
Whether they were over the line is rather irrelevant. You can't take people hostage for drifting over the line. So the Iranian justification is ridiculous.
I had a neighbor who shot a man in the street because he thought he was a peeping tom. He tried to explain to the police that it was definitely the peeping tom but the policeman retorted "You can't shoot a man in the street PERIOD. Whether he was a peeping tom is irrelevant"
Scan and post the map.
An interesting set of observations.
The only 'problem' I see... is a lack of backbone shown by the British government.
What the HELL is going on in the U.K.? We are our brave friends? Have they lost all spine?
Iran has kidnapped your defenders for the second time in several years. They are parading them and humiliating them on TV in front of the whole world.
And all the U.K. has to say is "maybe we are wrong".
If you people don't start sticking up for yourselves you will be under Sharia law within years. I see this event as your last chance of salvation. Decide whether you want to defend yourselves NOW!!
I am truly saddened by the way this situation was handled in the UK. Islam has been emboldened once again by the Chamberlains of the world.
This is the former UK Ambassador to one of the 'stans, antiwar and trying to prove the RN is at fault.
Re the charts, how old are they ?
When were they last corrected per Notice To Mariners (or UK equivalent) ?
Are the GPS coordinates expressed in the same datum as the chart coordinates ?
I seem to recall Nasty Geographic pictures of small ships in that part of the world beached and unloading directly into trucks.
But you can shoot a peeping tom if he's armed and standing in your living room.
-Devil's advocate.
When the author of the articla is stating that the Indian vessel was "anchored" in the channel...
I am wondering if this is just bad reporting or poor seamanship...
In my experience you do not anchor anywhere near a "channel" or other navigable waterway where other ships may ply...
Yes, there are areas that you can anchor for whatever reason required...
I was in (and operated in) the Persian Gulf before it was cool to be in the Persian Gulf...1985-1989, and back again for all the fun in the sun in '91...
All I know is the Iranians are notorious for "spoofing" GPS systems at every level...
The bottom line is that these personnel should not have been taken hostage without a fight...And if they were instructed by rules of engagement to not resist an Iranian encounter by force...
Well then the laugh is on the British government...
And now the entire process is diffused because the time to have acted has way come and gone...
I always told my folks that if push comes to shove you may rest assured that when you find my remains...That my hands (in this case) would be around the throat of the remains of one, and hopefully surrounded by many others of my captors...
This is going to be such a farce when and if this gets resolved...
And the Iranians will come out smelling like roses...
Ask me how many times I violated Iranian waters back in my day...And if I gave a Shiite??? ;-)
Good post!
Plot the latitude and longitude on Google maps/satellite.
It appears to be about 10 miles offshore, just where the water starts shallowing and at the edge of the channel.
A logical place to anchor.
Decimal latitude and longitude you enter in google is about:
29.833382, 48.716818
Which corresponds pretty well with the degrees, minutes, seconds format in this picture
http://www.mod.uk/NR/rdonlyres/DB42AC92-E1CC-4478-9910-B8CB299A6612/0/HeloGPS.jpg
What you wrote .... Bump!
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