>>That’s interesting that you try to make your point by changing the text in the King Follett discourse from Joseph Smith’s reference to ‘Spirit’ to ‘Intelligence’. I’m simply posting what the text says, I didn’t write it or alter it in any way.
You are amazing!
We already had the discussion of how all spirits are intelligences, like all men are human. The reverse is not true. We also talked about how often in the King Follet discourse Joseph often used them interchangeably when talking about the union (it’s a math thing) between the two sets intelligence, and Spirit. I point out that the King Follet discourse was reconstructed from personal notes taken by people who were there. This reconstruction took place years after the discourse and after Joseph Smith was martyred. (he was no available for comment on the compiled amalgam of his sermon) Your point was that his statement as you quoted it is at odds with other statements he made before the discourse, and after. Your point is that he can’t be a prophet, because he contradicts himself. It is more reasonable to assume that his words were consistent with the many documented times in which he spoke publicly on the same topic? Not to you. Is it more reasonable to assume that using a word interchangeably might confuse an amateur note taker? Not to you.
So, post the link you got this from, since I could not find it at the sites I have used (and no the King follet Discourse is not on LDS.org sit because it is not cannon of the church for exactly the reasons I state here that it might be wrong. If the source cannot be authenticated, the document will not be considered Cannon by the church.
If you are going to judge us and challenge us do so by canonized scripture or accept that we will start discussing the books in the apocrypha, and the Gnostic Gospels. Care to discuss the Gospel of Mary?
>>This King Follett discourse is officially accepted by the Mormon Church
No, it is not, it is included only in historical materials, not in doctrinal materials.
>>and included in the History and the Churches Journal of Discourses
Historical records, was there a King Follet Sermon, undoubtedly, however we do not have an accurate transcript of what was said.
>>If you question whether my source is valid or not, then by all means, I encourage you to find a source that you consider valid (www.lds.org). You’ll find it says the same thing.
Fine, I’ll find good online source right after you reveal yours (grin this is the third time you have missed your opportunity to be forthcoming.)
>>Do you have a problem with what was said?
I am sure that what was said was consistent with the other sermons Joseph Smith gave on the spur of the moment. I have a problem with what you say was said. You have refused to post a link to your source. I Googled your quote and found nothing that was not on an obvious anti-Mormon site. I Googled the King Follet discourse and went to non-church sites with the King Follet discourse on it and used the search function (on at leas three sites), on none of them did I get a “Hit” on your sentence of import. This tells me you are using a quote that was tweaked by anti Mormons. I have repeatedly invited and implored you to share your link so all the readers can know you are on the up and up. You have not done so, you have not stated that you do not have such a link for any valid reason (typed it from a book, etc). I am left with the conclusion that you came to this thread, acted interested in discussion, then jump on your favorite topic and are using a quotation you know to may be tainted.
>>That Joseph Smith said that God did not have the power to create our Spirits?
This is precisely the point, without a link, I cannot be sure that it is credible that Joseph Smith actually said that.
Do you care to actually tell where you got this quote, or are you going to go on unsupported, and therefore without credibly?
It is entirely up to you. You are asserting something was said that was inconsistent, the “Burden of proof” would have to be on you. I have tried to verify your quote, and failed, your refusal to post the link does not look good.
Have a nice day.
Again, I am not interested in trying to disprove Mormonism. These discussions have come about because people are asking me questions as to why I believe as I do. Look back at the thread and you will see that I have been responding to questions. If you don’t want to hear what I have to say, then stop asking me questions.
>> Your point is that he can’t be a prophet, because he contradicts himself.
I never said that Joseph Smith isn’t a Prophet, and I have never attempted to make that point. That’s ancillary to the discussion we are having.
I am amazed that you have such a problem with the text. Here’s another excerpt from the discourse, again, Joseph is saying that the spirit of man had no beginning. If it had no beginning, then how is it that you are born to a Heavenly Father and Mother?
“is it logic to say the spirit of man had a beginning & yet had no end? It does not have a beginning or end”
And from Joseph Smith’s own diary, “God never had power to create the spirit of man”
>> Is it more reasonable to assume that using a word interchangeably might confuse an amateur note taker?
These weren’t amateur note takers. The first people to take these notes were actually trusted General Conference Clerks at the time, and notes were also taken by Wilford Woodruff who became a future Prophet; also, some of these statements are found in Joseph Smith’s own diary (see quote above).
>> This reconstruction took place years after the discourse and after Joseph Smith was martyred.
The King Follett discourse was printed and published in the Times and Seasons (owned by the Mormon Church) about 4 months after the speech. Years later it was reconstructed, but thankfully, we have both texts to review. Both of which use the word spirit as I have illustrated.
>> If you are going to judge us and challenge us do so by canonized scripture or accept that we will start discussing the books in the apocrypha, and the Gnostic Gospels. Care to discuss the Gospel of Mary?
In my research (from many different sources), I looked at both canonized scripture and discourses taught by your Prophets. The discourses I have excerpted are from the below sources:
“http://journalofdiscourses.org/Vol_06/refJDvol6-1.html"; AND
“http://www.boap.org/LDS/Parallel/1844/7Apr44.html#N_1_";
Personally, I look at what your Prophets have said. Your Prophets have taught that they are saying the word of God through them, so it is very important to look at what your Prophets have said. I would think you should be interested in what they’ve said as well. You should read all of the Journal of Discourses.
Let me ask you the question directly. Do you believe God created your Spirit? Is what you believe in line with what Joseph Smith taught?