[Atlantic Bridge]

The French, as a culture with a long tradition of secularism, do not like the very idea of a confessional religious state which has de facto degrees of citizenship based on religious belief. They especially don't like it in a NEW state, founded since World War II. Ancient states with deeply entrenched systems and bigotries are one thing, but to start a new state from scratch, and build it on religious lines: the French oppose this as fundamentally wrong. There is much more, but that is one of key root problems. In the French view of a world, an explicitly religious, discriminatory state should never have been built in the 20th Century.

Agreed, but it is also the ongoing negative economic and political impact for Europe that has its origin in the existance of Israel. There is a reason why most Europeans see Israel among the most dangerous nations in public-opinion polls. The jewish nation is a annoyance to many French politicians, since it simply complicates the European-Arab relationship. We Europeans have no benefit from that. Germans accept this fact since they see the historical dept they owe the Jews, Frenchmen do not. Maybe you remember the French ambassador who called Israel this "shitty little country". That hits the point from the French view.

BTW - not only the French oppose Israels judaistic basement as totally wrong. I remember Scandinavic and other European politicians comparing the fact, that even today all Israelis have to be married by a rabbi (a practice which makes marriages between Israelis and Arabs de facto impossible), with the German Blutschutzgesetz (law to safe the German blood) of 1935. A comparison that is not that wrong if we look at the practical effect although such a statement is of course politically incorrect. Israelis who want to marry Arabs have no choice but to head abroad. Many end up flying to nearby Cyprus.

Nevertheless I think it is idiotic that Israel still splits the west into two different "camps". Israel critics like France and the Benelux on one side and more pro-Israel nations like the US and Germany on the other. The Brits are somewhere in between. Nobody has a benefit from a west en désaccord. Therefore it would be helpful if France could give up its fundamental opposition concerning Israel. We might not like everything about this nation, but on the other hand it is the only real democracy in the middle east. Everything else there is autocratic, theocratic or pseudo-democratic BS. This should be reason enough to give them some support.

[Vicomte13]

I disagree. France would give up a great deal by following the American line on Israel. There is nothing to be gained for France by doing so. France enjoys privileged economic relations with key Muslim states because of the diplomatically neutral (and rhetorically pro-Arab) position of France vis-a-vis Israel. For France to simply adopt a pro-Israeli position would be extremely insincere: most French people are not pro-Israel. It would also jeopardize the various special relationships France enjoys with various Arab governments. And it would create a strong political backlash within France.

By contrast, what's the benefit for France in supporting Israel against the Arabs, to offset those clear disadvantages? There's no moral advantage in it certainly: we've already spoken of the philosophical and moral problems with having an explicitly religious state of European emigres set up in the Middle East. There's no appreciable economic advantage to France. The Americans are not going to "Think better of France" or do one thing concrete in France's favor. What is to be gained by doing this? Nothing whatever. Certainly nothing that compensates for the loss.

No, it's in France's interest to stay neutral in the affair, and to be reasonably sympathetic to the Arabs. That makes the most sense economically, security-wise, and morally.