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To: raygun

Nowhere in the Tanakh is there any kind of "hell" (sheol) defined as an eternal place of torment after life. There's a description in Isaiah that's often misconstrued, though. In rebuttal to that misconstruction, only this world has new moons, carcasses, and the like.

Oh, Judaism tells of a heaven and hell, but they're different from heavens and hells described in other religions.

I'm much more easily leaving some bad habits behind, as I learn to do better things with more a positive mind/spirit. What we do in our earthly life is very important, contrary to the beliefs of my former religion. And what happens in the afterlife is up to G-d, IMO--not for us to worry about.

And on your question, "who is the prophet referring to in Isaiah 52:13-53:12," he referred to the people of Israel. If that's not clear enough for some, it is very clearly shown in Isaiah 41:8-9, 44:1-2, 21, 45:4, 48:20 and 49:3, that Israel is G-d's "servant" as mentioned in 52 and 53. ...also in many other parts of the Tanakh.


155 posted on 03/03/2007 5:55:40 PM PST by familyop
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To: familyop
Shalom.

Once again I apologize for the succinct, terse and synoptic nature of my reply. There aren't enough heartbeats in a multitude of lifetimes sufficient to render a comphrehensive reply, nor are there enough hearteats in numerous lifetimes available to read such, and neither do sufficient electrons exist in the universe available for me to push so as to even remotely address the topic with sufficient depth.

I understand all the arguments and objections respecting the interpretation that Isa 53 is referring to Messiah. However, I beg to differ, in that what specifically is said in the passage can in no way be interpreted referring to Israel as a nation if proper hermenuetics are employed, nay not even a casual reading of the passage will result in exegesis of such; it is patently eisegetical.

The following points emerge from a close reading of Isa 52:13-53:12:

So many other prophecies speak of the suffering prophecied in Isa 53 in language which does not ring totally true of David, Hezekiah, nor Israel to whom they may primarily refer. Thus Psa 22 speaks of a group of men mocking the Messiah as he stood in agony, his bones sticking out (v.17), God appearing not to respond to his prayers (v.1-3), his hands and feet pierced (crucifixion is about the only form of death or torture which could be described like this,v.16), his clothes parted amongst his persecutors (v.18), and then many people worldwide coming to praise God because of His vindication of His servant by answering his prayers for deliverance from death (v.22-31).

No other person claiming to be Messiah has been so consistently rejected by all Jewry. Psa 118:22 speaks of Messiah as the stone that the Jews rejected (He being refered to "the stone" in Gen 49:24; Dan 2:43,44; Zec 3:8,9). Isa 8:14 speaks of Messiah being a stone which Israel will stumble at. It is also worthwhile considering how many of those who typified Messiah such as Moses, David, Joseph and several of the judges were initially rejected by their brethren, although later accepted.

God would make "his soul" , i.e. " him" , " an offering for sin" (v.10). The Law required that the offerer lay his hand on the sin offering before it was killed, to associate himself with it (Lev 4:4,15,24,29). In this way the animal bore the offerer's sins, in the same way as the scapegoat bore Israel's sins on the day of Atonement. This fact is definitely alluded to here: "Bearing their iniquities" (v11), "He bare the sin of many" (v12), "the Lord hath laid on him the iniquity of us all" (v6). These verses are conclusive that a human offering and sin-bearing sacrifice is being described here . It is noteworthy that the bullock's blood was to be "sprinkled" seven times before the Lord to make atonement (Lev 4:6,17); and the same Hebrew word occurs earlier in this same suffering servant prophecy: " My servant...his visage was so marred more than any man...so (on account of his sufferings) shall he sprinkle many nations" (Isa 52:13-15).

The blood of slain animals offered in sacrifice is not in itself a valid way to atone for sin - this merely pointing forward to "the blood" of the perfect sacrifice (an illustraation of the atonement and type of Messiah). That perfect sin-bearing sacrifice, which Isa 53 intimates was to be made by the willing death of the suffering servant, therefore gained forgiveness of sin for all time is some sort of reference to Israel is nothing but sanctimounious pontificating nonsense. The seed of the woman was to destroy sin, the seed of the serpent, through his own temporary sufferings (the bruising on the heel, Gen 3:15). "Sin" in this context must include all transgressions which have ever been committed (or will be), and all those which ever would be after the time that perfect sacrifice was made on Calvary's cross. This perfect sacrifice would not be so if there were other sacrifices still needed after it had been made. Therefore this perfect sacrifice which the "volume of the book" of the Old Covenant constantly pointed forward to (Psa 40:7), would provide atonement for future sins. Thus in the same way as the efficacy of the perfect sacrifice reached back to provide forgiveness of the sins committed under the Old Covenant, so its efficacy reaches forward as well. It is noteworthy that the Orthodox Jewish book of Zohar interprets Isaiah 53 by saying that it illustrates how God chooses to smite one just man in order to save many others.

Unlike tenses in the Greek, tenses in Hebrew are frequently used as part of linguistic idiom, i.e., manner of speaking. To accept arguments based upon them is something very few who appreciate the Hebrew of the Torah would be willing to do. A good example of the problem with Hebrew tenses can be found in Gen 17:5,6. The use of the past tense in "a father of many nations have I made thee" shows that this tense can be used to show Divine intention. The same principle is applicable in Isa 53 - the past tenses there indicate God's intention to do things which elsewhere in the same prophecy are spoken of in the future tense.

This "prophetic perfect" tense in Hebrew grammar is definitely recognized by Jewish expositors. The use of past and then future tenses is surely to teach that there was to be a certain order in Messiah's work as outlined in this passage - first sacrifice, and then honour. Messianic prophesies normally had a primary fulfilment; in this case the minor fulfilment was in Hezekiah, and therefore it is fitting that there is a mixture of tenses, as parts of the prophecy are more specifically relevant to him than others. An excellent example of this can be found in Psa 110:1:

The Lord said to my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand.
Who is talking, who is the object and who is the receiver? Seeing that Messiah was to be a descendant of David, it follows that he could not have existed before he was born, and therefore God could not have literally spoken to him. Thus David is using the past tense in a prophetic sense.

Moreover, the present tense is also used in Hebrew prophecy describing future events (Isa 9:6; 60:1). Due to omniescience and omnipresence, the Lord of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob can speak of things which are not yet as though they are; the latter of the foregoing implying that Jehovah exists throught all of time, and also must have knowlege of all time(s).

The foregoing notwithstanding, nevertheless, I do concede that the suffering servant of Isa 53 does have application to the people of Israel. However, the Targums interpret Isa 53 as specifically referring to Messiah (Sanhedrin 98b); there is good reason to support their implication that not all references to the "suffering servant" are to the people of Israel. Isa 49 speaks of the servant being called by God out of the womb (hinting at a virgin birth?), and being "His (God's) servant to bring Jacob again to him...to raise up the tribes of Jacob, and to restore the preserved of Israel" (v.1,5,6). This clearly differentiates the " servant" and the people of Israel. The " we" referred to in Isa 53 is Israel: "When we shall see him (the servant) there is no beauty that we should desire him (as Jews today claim that they see nothing attractive in Jesus)...we esteemed him not...for the transgression of My (God's? Isaiah's) people (Israel) was he (the servant) smitten". Similarly the same servant in Isa 49:7 is described as "him whom man despiseth... whom the nation abhorreth" when he came to save them from their sins. This is further proof that the Jews were firstly to reject their Messiah and subject him to tremendous mockery and death. No other individual has been so mocked by the Jews as Jesus. Israel desperately need a Messiah now - and that Messiah must be one whom previously they rejected, mocked and killed. The only candidate is Jesus Christ. There certainly are many connections between the language used of the suffering servant in Isa 53, and that of Psa 22:6 and Psa 69:7,10,19 which also describe the suffering of Messiah. These verses again show how one individual is mocked by his Jewish brethren. Seeing the resemblance of the person spoken of being so similar to the spoken of in Isa 53 it buggers astonishment that the person described could even remotely be construed to be the Israel as a natiuon.

Other various Targums and Midrashim can be seen applying to Messiah. Messiah was to be despised (Psa 22:6; 69:19-22); rejected (Psa 118:22); mocked (Psa 22:7,8; 69:8,20; 89:51,52); whipped (Psa 129:3); impaled on a stake (Psa 22:1,2,14-17); thirsty (Psa 22:16); given wine nixed with gall (Psa 69:20-22); have lots cast for his clothes (Psa 22:18,19); have unbroken bones (Psa 34:21); rise from the dead (Psa 16:10); ascend to Heaven (Psa 68:19); be at the right hand of God (Psa 80:17; 110:1); be High Priest (Psa 110:4); judge the nations (Psa 89:3-5); reign eternally (Psa 89:35-37); be the Son of God (Psa 2:7); speak in parables (Psa 78:2); calm a storm (Psa 89:10); have Hosanna sung to him (Psa 118:25,26); be blessed for ever (Psa 45:1-4,8,18); and come in glory at the Last Day (Psa 102:6-23). The picture which the rabbinic writings had created of Messiah was exactly the person whom Jesus was and whom the early church preached. To construe Isa 53 as being something other than what the clear meaning of the reading inimates is neither consistant, nor intellectually honest.

Quite frankly, to interpret Isa 53 in some context other than that of a prophecy pertaining to Messiah does great and egregious violence to the normal meaning, usage of words, and the intent that the Spirit meant to convery in Scripture.

Finally, please allow me to be so bold to say that if only the idea of accepting Jesus as Messiah can be accepted as possible, so many familiar Scriptures will be illuminated as having echoes of the crucifixion; e.g. Isaac carrying the wood of his own sacrifice and obediently allowing himself to be offered as the first seed of Abraham so clearly points forward to the record of Jesus Christ's crucifixion. I pray for the Spirit's guidance and minstry to you, for humility and understanding so that the Scriptures themselves can give you that courage and ability to accept that which has seemed impossible for so very, very long.

Shalom.

167 posted on 03/04/2007 6:05:16 PM PST by raygun (Freepmail me if you need a catastrophic asteroid 2028 insurance policy.)
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