The Gospel according to Darwin

National Review Online ^ | February 12, 2007 1:30 PM | John G. West

[Pharmboy]

No argument there, friend, and perhaps I was incorrect to equate "Age of Reason" to "The Enlightenment." I do not kow much of Euro history, but I know a little about the American Revolution. The Revolution could not have happened without Christianity and The Enlightenment, as they were not mutually exclusive.

[hellbender]

See my post # 240.

[hellbender]

I think too much attention has been given to the Enlightenment as the source of the Revolution, and not enough to the way the Founding Fathers were heirs to a tradition of struggle against goverment absolutism going back for centuries in English history, and including several civil wars or revolutions, one of them closer to their era than the American Civil War is to ours. The Founding Fathers didn't get their ideas from some philosophe in a salon somewhere. They were empiricists and realists, and their beliefs were based on historical experience, mainly that of the British but also of the Greeks, Romans, etc. They were extremely well-educated and well-read. Unfortunately, our educational system today does not produce such people. Education in America used to routinely cover things like the Magna Carta, which many consider the first step in limiting government power, and which was promulgated about half a millenium before the Enlightenment.

[Pharmboy]

True enough, but the complement to decreasing government power, i.e., individual liberty, largely came from the Enlightenment. It was during the French and Indian War that many American soldiers came into contact with Freemasonry through the "Field Lodges" that the Brit troops traveled with. During Masonic meetings, the Yanks were impressed with the fact that generals and infantrymen were the same. The Enlightenment was thus disseminated.

Another thing the early Americans were trying to put behind them was the bloodshed of the Reformation and Counter-Reformation. In many 16th century American colonies (other than Maryland, obviously) it was more difficult to get in if you were a Catholic rather than, say, a Jew.

[hellbender]

The idea that individual people of different classes, races, etc. are of equal value can be traced back for centuries before the Enlightenment. It is fundamental Christian doctrine, although it was not always honored in practice in nominally Christian societies. Once common people had access to the Bible, this idea began to spread. Certainly the heavily-Christian, predominantly Protestant American Revolutionaries knew their Bibles very well.
Indeed, the Founding Fathers were very aware of the dangers of sectarian conflict, because wars over religion in England & continental Europe were "modern history" to them. They knew about Bloody Mary and her purges of English Protestants. That's why the colonists were very fearful of Catholicism becoming spread here, and that's why the Founders were against any national established church, although they allowed such churches in individual states. These men were pragmatists, empiricists, and followers of history--not abstract theorists like those of the French Enlightenment. They were not intent on achieving earthly perfection, but were willing to compromise. They accepted many things which modern libertarians would find anathema, like slavery, tariffs, etc.

[Pharmboy]

No real argument with what you wrote, but perhaps a bit of a tweak in terms of the 'classist" society that England was (and, in some ways, still is). The Enlightenment did help...

[hellbender]

Yes, England has been attacked for being "classist," but England was diverse, and had radical pro-liberty elements for centuries. I was reading recently about the Peasant Rebellion of 1381 (which actually included other social classes), long before the Enlightenment or even the Renaissance. Its main motive was one dear to the hearts of libertarians and American conservatives: tax resistance! If you look into history, which is, after all, a laboratory of human behavior in the real world, you find similar ideas cropping up in different ages. For example, read The Socialist Phenomenon by Igor Shafarevitch (a Soviet-era dissident) and learn that, far from being a "novel" or "progressive" idea, it is actually a throwback to ancient systems of despotism found in many cultures throughout recorded history.

[Pharmboy]

Thanks for the interesting points re Euro history. Much appreciated.

[narby]

"The scientific evidence showing the hand of the Creator falls into three major areas:.... astronomical

So how come we see light from galaxies billions of light years away, yet the Bible says the earth is around 6000 year old?

Once you ignore the literal translation of Genesis, then you can ignore all of it. Even if God existed, He could have easily operated by the tool of evolution, just as He brings the rain by the chemical tool of condensing water.

If a Creator exists, how can He be detected? Is there a gauge? Is there a prediction that the Creator will operate in a particular manner that can be tested? How can people, operating on logic and evidence detect Him?

[jonno]

Does the existence of one species similar to another species indicate (prove) transition? Or is it merely "logical" (iow - does it fit a preconception)?

The fact is that true transitional species have not been found - and this is readily admitted by most palaeontologists (Coyoteman?).

[jonno]

If a Creator exists, how can He be detected? Is there a gauge? Is there a prediction that the Creator will operate in a particular manner that can be tested? How can people, operating on logic and evidence detect Him?

Good questions all. Here's another - how would the universe appear - what would it look like - if there was a creator?

[Zeroisanumber]

Darwin Day, eh? I'd be nice to have a Christmas for Atheists. So far the only thing we have is International Talk Like a Pirate Day, and while that's good fun, it isn't an explicit Atheist holiday.

[Coyoteman]

The fact is that true transitional species have not been found - and this is readily admitted by most palaeontologists (Coyoteman?).

False.

Here is a transitional. Note its position in the chart which follows (hint--in the upper center):

---

Fossil: KNM-ER 3733

Site: Koobi Fora (Upper KBS tuff, area 104), Lake Turkana, Kenya (4, 1)

Discovered By: B. Ngeneo, 1975 (1)

Estimated Age of Fossil: 1.75 mya * determined by Stratigraphic, faunal, paleomagnetic & radiometric data (1, 4)

Species Name: Homo ergaster (1, 7, 8), Homo erectus (3, 4, 7), Homo erectus ergaster (25)

Gender: Female (species presumed to be sexually dimorphic) (1, 8)

Cranial Capacity: 850 cc (1, 3, 4)

Information: Tools found in same layer (8, 9). Found with KNM-ER 406 A. boisei (effectively eliminating single species hypothesis) (1)

Interpretation: Adult (based on cranial sutures, molar eruption and dental wear) (1)

See original source for notes:
Source: http://www.mos.org/evolution/fossils/fossilview.php?fid=33

Source: http://wwwrses.anu.edu.au/environment/eePages/eeDating/HumanEvol_info.html

[scottdeus12]

"So how come we see light from galaxies billions of light years away, yet the Bible says the earth is around 6000 year old?"

(1) Where does the bible say the earth is 6000 years old? (2) Even if it is 6,000 years old, it doesn't mean that older galaxies around us can't exist. I don't see the point in your question.

"If a Creator exists, how can He be detected?"

Easy, look at the Human Genome. It's coded. How does something get coded if not by intelligence? It doesn't.

[scottdeus12]

False? Really?

We will briefly digress to consider this skull - No. 3733 - (Fig. 57) which was also given considerable publicity. It was found in 1975 in many pieces. Following its reconstruction Leakey said, 'In all its features the cranium is strikingly like that of H. erectus from Pekin' (Leakey 1976). It was found in strata dated 1.3 to 1.6 million years and Leakey said it was about 1.5 million years old.

On the problem of what angle the face-bones should be (which we have met regarding 1470 man, p201), he says:

The facial skeleton is flexed under the calvaria and in the preliminary reconstruction is set at about the same angle as that reconstructed for a female H. erectus by Weidenreich. (Leakey 1976)
Here indeed is a classic example of much supposition being eventually accepted as a fact. As we have shown on p116, Weidenreich's reconstruction of Nellie [the nickname of the reconstructed skull] was from a number of broken pieces of apes skulls from widely different parts of the Pekin site. So despite the grave, scientific aura with which he tries to invest his reconstruction, it is clearly piecemeal and arbitrary. Leakey, seeing that his skull was similar to Weidenreich's, set the face-bones at the same angle.

"...Most people would probably accept that it looks quite human, despite the massive brow ridges and small brain size......"

http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/homs/bowden3733.html

[Coyoteman]

"...Most people would probably accept that it looks quite human, despite the massive brow ridges and small brain size......"

But other creationists claim its an ape.

Sounds like a good example of a transitional to me!

[scottdeus12]

They claim it's either one or the other Coyoteman, not transitional. That's your opinion.

[jonno]

sigh...

Ok - I'll answer my own question: The existence of one species similar to another species does not prove transition. However, I can see how it would fit (support) a preconception.

Again:
The fact is that true transitional species have not been found - and this is readily admitted by most (serious) palaeontologists.

Btw - repeatedly showing a picture of lines linking findings is proof an idea - not proof of transition.

[Coyoteman]

They claim it's either one or the other Coyoteman, not transitional. That's your opinion.

See the chart in post #253.

Homo ergaster is transitional between Australopithecines and more modern Homo species.

[scottdeus12]

I've seen the chart you posted...many times by the way. It proves nothing.

I just posted information that questions the transitional status you are claiming. What about that?