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1 posted on 12/14/2006 6:34:28 AM PST by Graybeard58
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2 posted on 12/14/2006 6:35:38 AM PST by Graybeard58 (Remember and pray for SSgt. Matt Maupin - MIA/POW- Iraq since 04/09/04)
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To: Graybeard58
Aside from the ordination of homosexual clerics, the real issue here is who owns the dissenting congregations and property, the congregations or the church itself. That might be an internal church call since it's church law and church contracts that the courts would be interpreting. At the very least there's a strong chance the courts will initially defer to the Church's internal proceedings and only look at their outcome in an appellate role.
6 posted on 12/14/2006 6:45:54 AM PST by libstripper
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To: Graybeard58
Romans 26-27,

Typical reporter. He means Romans 1: 26-27

8 posted on 12/14/2006 7:12:17 AM PST by AppyPappy (If you aren't part of the solution, there is good money to be made prolonging the problem.)
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To: Graybeard58

"An internal church matter..."

Sure, if you are talking about who is a priest and who isn't, who can take communion and who can't, fine.

But when you are talking about real estate, whose title is granted and registered by the state, and when you are talking about contracts, enforceable by the state, then it is not MERELY an internal church matter at all anymore.

Suppose we "leave it to canon law", the bishops decide in their own favor, but the parishes refuse to budge and physically eject the bishops from the property. Then the BISHOPS go to court to enforce their internal rulings. And once again the enforcement becomes a state matter. Inevitably.


9 posted on 12/14/2006 7:26:20 AM PST by Vicomte13 (Aure entuluva.)
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To: Graybeard58

Not to belabor the point in my last post, but inside the United States, or any modern state which reserves unto itself the absolute monopoly of violence (in the form of the police and military authorities), NO other organization, including religions, no matter how free, is ever WHOLLY free of the power of the state, and indeed the state is ULTIMATELY the arbiter in any dispute, without exception, that is bitter enough.

Why?
Because if a dispute is bitter enough, the side that loses an argument or an internal procedure will not respect the rules, will DEFY the rules and change them, and PHYSICALLY sit on whatever they have. Suppose these parishes, the conservative ones, really believe in their hearts that ECUSA is not just in error, but is actually serving the DEVIL. Then cooperating with it, when the internal rules say they must go, is cooperating with the Devil. So, they go through the internal motions, lose, and then tell the Bishops and his minions to go pack sand. The Bishop and his cronies show up at the Church, but the wardens REFUSE to hand over keys and block the door.

If the Bishop or his minions physically push their way inside, they have committed the civil crime of assault. There is absolutely NO exception, NONE WHATEVER, that allows ANY organization, religious or otherwise, to commit assault to enforce its rules. ALL organizations, no matter how private, are EXCLUSIVELY limited to PERSUASION. If they win the argument, but the other side folkds it arms and refuses to act based on rules or reason, that is the END of the line for private action. If one side will not PHYSICALLY budge, no matter how "right" the other side is in its arguments, if it PHYSICALLY touches the ones standing their grounds, they have committed civil criminal acts, and are liable for prosecution. The police and courts do not give a damn if the REASON the assault happened was because somebody wasn't obeying the bishop. A bishop enforcing his full powers within the Church has ZERO authority to physically assault another person EVER.

This is why possession is nine-tenths of the law, because the stubborn possessor can ONLY be removed from possession by the threat of physical force BY THE STATE. NOBODY else, no OTHER organization in all of society - not churches, not clubs, not companies - has the rlegal right to PHYSICALLY assult another in order to get its way. If these churches shut their doors to the bishop and ignore him and his officials, their SOLE recourse is to go to the police, who will do NOTHING without a court order.

And so, the court will be forced to decide every internal issue of every church if one side or the other refuses to yield when it loses. If one side or other refuses to respect the internal rules, and will not yield when they lose, then the state must decide the case, because the state, and the state alone, can send in the sherriff to physically drag the other person out. If anybody ELSE does that, even if he or she is legally RIGHT, it's a crime and they go to jail.

Example: some guy doesn't pay his rent to the landlord for 6 months. The landlord has to go to court to get an eviction, and the sherriff has to effect the physical eviction. If the landlord physically evicts the non-payer, the landlord has committed a crime and will be prosecuted and quite possibly jailed for assault. About the only exception to the absolute monopoly on violence held by the state is the right to self-defense againt threats to life or limb. That never applies in the case of an internal dispute within a Church.

So, the bottom line is that if the dissidents (either way) are stubborn enough, the state will be FORCED to decide the issues. Fold arms and sit on the property. Be unreasonable. Only the police can enforce an evcition.


10 posted on 12/14/2006 7:41:51 AM PST by Vicomte13 (Aure entuluva.)
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To: Graybeard58

Property issues are a matter of civil law, not canon law. I don't see how the civil courts can be avoided.


11 posted on 12/14/2006 8:15:03 AM PST by Unam Sanctam
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