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Creation museum pushes 'true history' (About New Ohio Creationist Museum)
BBC ^

Posted on 12/12/2006 8:11:24 AM PST by HHKrepublican_2

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To: DaveLoneRanger
By saying "The Bible was never written to be a science textbook" does not mean "the things in the Bible that are instructive of science are incorrect" and it is astounding to me that you think so.

The problem is that the biblical proponents get so carroied away here. When the bible says "and the winds blew over the earth", people here start trumpeting "See! The bible accurately anticipates modern meteorology!" That level of distortion get's pretty tiresome after a while.

181 posted on 12/21/2006 12:14:09 PM PST by blowfish
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Comment #182 Removed by Moderator

Comment #183 Removed by Moderator

To: DaveLoneRanger
On the other hand, detailed sanitary concerns given in the Old Testament show a knowledge of biology (IE, germs) that would not fully make sense until centuries later.

Knowledge of germs? I don't think so. Knowledge of basic practical sanitation? Probably.

184 posted on 12/21/2006 1:33:52 PM PST by blowfish
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To: blowfish

A knowledge of microrganisms as the cuse of disease leads to a different kind of sanitation than just a declaration of clean and unclean. Sanitation based on biological knowledge is much more specific in its recommendations.


185 posted on 12/21/2006 1:38:02 PM PST by js1138 (The absolute seriousness of someone who is terminally deluded.)
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Comment #186 Removed by Moderator

To: DaveLoneRanger

Hippo.


187 posted on 12/21/2006 2:00:15 PM PST by UpAllNight
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To: DaveLoneRanger

"Firebrands stream from his mouth; sparks of fire shoot out."

Which dinosaur was this?


188 posted on 12/21/2006 2:02:04 PM PST by UpAllNight
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To: DaveLoneRanger

--On the other hand, detailed sanitary concerns given in the Old Testament show a knowledge of biology (IE, germs) that would not fully make sense until centuries --

On the other hand, we now understand the fallicies of their ways ....




Toilets, Qumran, and the Essenes

In an article written by Alan Boyle, Science Editor for MSNBC, Israeli anthropologist Joe Zias and James Tabor, a professor at the University of North Carolina at Charlotte report the discovery of latrines at Qumran. Below is an excerpt of the article:
One of the less sanitary aspects of life in Jesus' day has come into play in the debate over who wrote the Dead Sea Scrolls, how they lived and how they died.


The latest evidence comes from a site that two researchers have identified as the communal latrine for Qumran, the ancient settlement near the caves where the 2,000-year-old scrolls were found.




























Israeli anthropologist Joe Zias and James Tabor, a biblical scholar at the University of North Carolina at Charlotte, say the unusual placement of the latrine would be consistent with the theory that Qumran was inhabited by a hard-core Jewish sect known as the Essenes. They even speculate that the latrine's unsanitary conditions may have contributed to ill health among the sect's members.


The prevailing view among archaeologists has been that Essenes at a Qumran monastery were the keepers of the Dead Sea Scrolls — but that view has come under increasing challenge in recent years, with some experts saying Qumran was a fortress or a pottery-making center that had nothing to do with the Essenes.


One of the most vigorous critics of the Essene connection, University of Chicago historian Norman Golb, told MSNBC.com that the latest report from Tabor and Zias "does nothing" to prove that the Essenes lived and worked in Qumran.


"The recent finding of a latrine can, at the most, show no more than that the inhabitants of the area were human beings who practiced some form of sanitation," Golb said.


So what do ancient potty practices have to do with the mystery of Qumran? Although the findings of Zias and Tabor may not be a smoking gun, they represent an intriguing blend of textual analysis and "CSI"-style forensics — intriguing enough to be accepted for publication in Revue de Qumran, an international journal on Dead Sea Scroll science.


Toiletries in texts


It all started with Tabor's reflection on historical texts: The book of Deuteronomy, as well as the Dead Sea Scrolls themselves, considered bathroom duties to be unclean in the sight of God. Thus, the faithful were told that their latrines had to be placed far enough away from the community to be out of sight. Various references specify distances of 1,000 to 3,000 cubits (1,500 to 4,500 feet, or 457 to 1,370 meters), preferably to the northwest of the community.


According to the 1st-century historian Josephus, the Essenes in Jerusalem strictly observed this custom. He marveled at the Essenes' religious and intestinal fortitude, noting that they refused to "go to stool" on the Sabbath — and Tabor speculated that this was because the latrine was farther away than Jews were allowed to travel on the holy day.


Years ago, it struck Tabor that Essenes at Qumran should have had a similar practice. "I thought, 'They must have been doing this if they believed it so fervently. Has anyone ever gone out and looked for this?'" he recalled.


Looking at a map, Tabor saw there was a prime site about 1,640 feet (500 meters) northwest of the Qumran site, sheltered from view behind a bluff. When he walked up to the site, he could see that one area of soil had a significantly different coloration. But how could he prove that it was a latrine, where the Essenes felt it was their religious duty to dig a trench, do their business and shovel dirt back on top?


That's when Tabor called upon Zias, a "bioarchaeologist" who has taken on other biblical puzzles such as the mechanics behind Roman-style crucifixion.


Parasites in ancient poop?


Zias took 10 soil samples — four from the site identified by Tabor, and six from elsewhere in the area as control samples — and had them analyzed by Stephainie Harter-Lailheugue, a French parasitologist from the Centre National de la Recerche Scientifique.


Three of the four samples from the suspected latrine contained desiccated eggs from parasitic worms commonly found in human stool samples (tapeworms, roundworms and pinworms). Meanwhile, none of the control samples turned up evidence of human-specific parasites.


Zias said that would indicate "heavy and continual use" of the site as a latrine.


Usually, the parasites in fecal matter would die out due to exposure to the elements in the Dead Sea region, Zias said. That's what happens to the waste left behind by modern-day Bedouins, for example. But Zias said the Essenes' practice of covering up their waste may have actually preserved the parasites.


Yet another curious twist strengthened the Qumran connection: Similar traces of parasites were found in a soil sample taken from inside the settlement, at a spot that Zias and Tabor think served as an emergency restroom for the Essenes.


As he put together the story, Zias came around to the view that Qumran was actually a pretty unsanitary place to live. "This should be a warning to religious people that you can take things a little bit too far," he told MSNBC.com.


Godliness vs. cleanliness


As time went on, pathogens would likely build up in the latrine, Zias said.

"What happened was that 20 to 40 people went out there every day over a period of 100 years," he explained in a University of North Carolina news release. "By burying their fecal matter, they actually preserved the microorganisms and parasites. In the sunlight, the bacteria and parasites get zapped within a fairly short amount of time, but buried, the parasites can live in the soil for up to a year. Then people pick up things by walking through fecally contaminated soil — it's like a toxic waste dump, and if you have any cuts on your feet..."


If the people who used the latrines were indeed Essenes, their religious practice would require them to undergo a ritual washing when they returned to the settlement. For modern-day Westerners, that sounds like good hygiene. But 1st-century Qumran was a different environment, and such practices would actually make matters worse, Zias said.


Water would typically stand in the ritual pools for months at a time, replenished only by three months' worth of winter rains. When the residents immersed themselves in the pools, they'd leave behind bacteria and parasite eggs. The warm water and sediment would serve as a fertile breeding ground for the pathogens, leading to cross-infection.


"Can you see yourself going into whirlpool water standing there for nine months, and 100 people have been going in there before you, day in and day out?" he asked.


Zias said the parasites detected at the presumed latrine would cause intestinal distress — which, in his mind, also helps explain the emergency toilet identified within the community. "If you're sitting there reading the Torah and you've got diarrhea, you think you're going to make it up the hill? You're not going to make it," he said.


To read the article in its entirety, visit the MSNBC Web page by clicking here.


The article presents more details about the findings by Zias and Tabor. The article also sheds additional light on the lives of the people who lived and worked at Qumran.


If you are interested in one aspect of at life Qumran and how the Essenes lived, this is an article that you should read.


Claude Mariottini
Professor of Old TestamentT
Northern Baptist Seminary


189 posted on 12/21/2006 2:07:31 PM PST by UpAllNight
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Comment #190 Removed by Moderator

To: DaveLoneRanger
You're the one claiming the biblical authors knew about microorganisms. Back it up.
And a passage along the lines of "don't eat excrement" isn't going to cut it.
191 posted on 12/21/2006 3:21:14 PM PST by blowfish
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To: DaveLoneRanger
I made the assertion that there was knowledge of germs and their reaction with the human nervous system.

For which you can't offer the slightest factual support.

193 posted on 12/21/2006 6:06:51 PM PST by blowfish
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To: DaveLoneRanger
I ask because I have this funny idea that you haven't even read the portions of the Bible we're talking about.

The part of the bible where they discuss germs and their interactions with the nervous system?
You're right: I haven't read that part. Give me the chapter and verse and I'll go look them up.

194 posted on 12/21/2006 6:11:51 PM PST by blowfish
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To: DaveLoneRanger

--I'm sure you're as familiar with the counter-arguments for that as I am with your response. I'll sum up, just in case. The passage says the tail is like a tree trunk.--

Uh, it does not say it is like a tree trunk.


195 posted on 12/22/2006 7:35:34 AM PST by UpAllNight
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To: DaveLoneRanger

Just to refresh you on the passage you linked:

"His tail [b] sways like a cedar;"

This more likely refers to a branch, not the trunk of the cedar. Your use of the word "trunk" is not credible.


196 posted on 12/22/2006 7:38:42 AM PST by UpAllNight
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To: Alter Kaker
I will open an evolution museum. One large completely empty room displaying the first "thing" that everything else evolved from, NOTHING. Now that is real good science. LOL
197 posted on 12/22/2006 8:19:31 AM PST by free_life
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To: free_life

--I will open an evolution museum. One large completely empty room displaying the first "thing" that everything else evolved from, NOTHING. Now that is real good science. LOL--

Obviously your concept of the theory of evolution has been distorted by the writings of the creationist propagandists.


198 posted on 12/22/2006 9:10:47 AM PST by UpAllNight
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