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Harrier Two Must Fly (JSF partner gone wobbly PING)
Sky News ^ | SKy

Posted on 12/10/2006 7:26:38 AM PST by Axlrose

Ministers have been urged to scrap the multi-billion-pound Joint Strike Fighter project unless the US agrees to share its sensitive technological specifications.

Sky Defence Correspondent Geoff Meade says the UK badly needs a replacement for the ageing Harrier - whatever it gets called.

Although the Falklands veteran jump jet has proved valuable beyond its years, flying mission after mission in support of ground troops in Afghanistan, the fierce tempo of operations is taking a toll on the lifespan of ageing airframes.

The problem is nobody knows yet if the new US-designed jet will be bought, or even what it will be called.

America designates it the F35, Lightening Two and Joint Strike Fighter. Britain prefers Joint Combat Aircraft. For simplicity why not name it the New Harrier?

We've already spent £1bn towards development, and the 138 aircraft we might buy would involve a pocket-stretching £70bn.

It is intended to equip two planned new aircraft carriers, HMS Queen Elizabeth and HMS Prince of Wales, both yet on the drawing board and budgeted at over £3bn.

So as the deal looks vulnerable, what's at stake is an awful lot of money and Britain's centuries-old ability to project power at sea.

But why is America falling out with her closest ally? It's all about what's called "technology transfer and operational sovereignty".

Like any state-of-the-art platforms, modern aircraft depend on computer software to perform. Indeed the RAF's Eurofighter Typhoon only achieves its astonishing agility by being inherently unstable in design and depending on massive computer power to make microscopic adjustments to the control surfaces every millisecond to stay airborne.

So ultra-secret computer codes are key to how the New Harrier performs, fights, arms, and adapts to changing missions and climates - even whether it can be repaired.

But the American government fears EU employment laws guaranteeing freedom to work to citizens within the union means this information could leak to a rival foreign power.

They'll sell Britain and other European partner nations the aircraft. But the planes would either have to return to the US for any adjustments, or await a team to arrive from the Fort Worth, Texas factory.

Eurofighter Typhoon For the RAF and Royal Navy, proud of their ability to adapt and adjust and repair on the frontline, this would be unacceptable. It might even make the New Harrier not worth the massive price tag.

So what is the "Plan B" Defence Procurement Minister Lord Drayson floated a year ago.

We already have a formidable and modern combat aircraft. It's called the Typhoon.

The high-level interceptor's been fiercely criticised as being a cold-war leftover we can ill afford, with nothing to contribute to the sort of war being fought in Afghanistan. Almost before it's entered service, its makers and the RAF are rushing to adapt the delta-wing fighter to a ground-attack role.

If it could also be configured to fly from the new carriers, it would do much to rid it of a reputation for redundancy.

The cost would be phenomenal. The whole airframe would need strengthening. But that would take up some of the jobs lost if the New Harrier was abandoned.

Britain is already committed to buying more than 200 Typhoons. Diverting some to a maritime role could be portrayed as cost effective.

Or it could all be a negotiating ploy aimed at making the Americans divulge their "crown jewel" computer codes - or risk losing their biggest ever arms export contract.


TOPICS: Foreign Affairs; News/Current Events; United Kingdom
KEYWORDS: eurofighter; f35; jsf; raf
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Looks like the Brits are going wobbly on co-operation with the US, first they drop the use of the term "War on Terror" as they fall over themselves to appease the enemy, now they are threatening to buy inferior Euro-Jets.

Seems that the US-UK relationship is going through a rocky patch...

1 posted on 12/10/2006 7:26:40 AM PST by Axlrose
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To: Axlrose

"Looks like the Brits are going wobbly on co-operation with the US"

This issue has been going on for sometime and could just as easily be portrayed as the US 'going wobbly on co-operation with the UK'. Although, given the anti-British agenda that permeates many of your posts, it doesn't surprise me that you would automatically see it the other way.

There is a definite issue with a country paying a lot of money for some aircraft without any guarantee that they would not be able to service them at some point in the future, would you not agree.

I am also not really sure what you're going on about with 'first they drop the use of the term "War on Terror" as they fall over themselves to appease the enemy'. Probably I missed another memo...


2 posted on 12/10/2006 7:35:22 AM PST by Canard
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To: Axlrose
It would appear the UK isn't alone in tryiing to appease the enemy.
3 posted on 12/10/2006 7:39:38 AM PST by ASA Vet (The WOT should have been over on 9/12/01.)
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To: Axlrose

The US has spent nearly 300 billion on this program vs the UK 1-2 billion. Its codes were an offshoot of the F-22 program. Now why would we give these over to the socialist EU(BAE and EADS work together alot) who wants to lift the arms embargo against communist china.This would make US air dominance vulnerable.

Answer:We wont.The program will survive with just the US if it has to.


4 posted on 12/10/2006 7:41:01 AM PST by MARKUSPRIME
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To: Canard
******I am also not really sure what you're going on about with 'first they drop the use of the term "War on Terror" as they fall over themselves to appease the enemy'. Probably I missed another memo...******

No you didn't miss another memo, you missed the thread posted.

The Brits ARE dropping the term 'War On Terror'.

5 posted on 12/10/2006 7:42:11 AM PST by Condor51 (Tagline Under Construction - Kindly Wear Your Hardhat)
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To: Axlrose

what's really disgusting is that the chinese probably already have the secret software.


6 posted on 12/10/2006 7:45:34 AM PST by wildcatf4f3 (If it weren't for lawyers we wouldn't need 'em)
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To: Condor51

Oh you mean the one where The Observer 'claims' that Foreign Office bureaucrats have 'suggested' that Ministers avoid the term for strategic reasons.

I'd make some point about how it seems that unattributed leaks in left wing newspapers suddenly seem to acquire so much more credibility when they support the posters world view and/or trolling agenda. But then I don't really care and I always thought 'war on terror' to be a nonsensical phrase anyway.


7 posted on 12/10/2006 7:47:52 AM PST by Canard
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To: Axlrose
So ultra-secret computer codes are key to how the New Harrier performs, fights, arms, and adapts to changing missions and climates - even whether it can be repaired. But the American government fears EU employment laws guaranteeing freedom to work to citizens within the union means this information could leak to a rival foreign power.

Makes sense to me. Why risk military secrets being stolen? All military secrets are targets for the enemy. So why should we make them easier to be stolen?

If the Brits don't want to play along with our rules, then let them continue with their current technology, even as outdated as it may be. Play along or move along.
8 posted on 12/10/2006 7:49:39 AM PST by adorno
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To: MARKUSPRIME

And it's a pretty awesome plane. I only clicked here to see some great shots of it.


9 posted on 12/10/2006 7:50:18 AM PST by mbraynard
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To: adorno

Many nations still want to buy the F-35 with our rules. Japan will buy more of them than the UK anyhow. I love the UK but they must know that the EU lifting the arms embargo to non-democratic nations is a security risk for us. We also know that members in the EU loath the US and would please them to shyte on us.


10 posted on 12/10/2006 7:53:58 AM PST by MARKUSPRIME
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To: adorno

Exactly. Giving these codes to the Brits is no better than giving them to the French and then the Chinese.

The Brits keep forgetting their place in the world, its a very long time since they were able to demand anything, heck even the French don't listen to them anymore.

We thank you for your $2bn, now where are the other $150bn or so needed to give you a REAL say ?


11 posted on 12/10/2006 7:54:47 AM PST by Axlrose
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To: MARKUSPRIME

The US will roll over on this one. Get back to me when they don't.


12 posted on 12/10/2006 7:57:10 AM PST by Tommyjo
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To: Axlrose
We already have a formidable and modern combat aircraft. It's called the Typhoon.

Unfortunately, the Typhoon costs a lot more money and doesn't have the VSTOL capability needed on the current British carriers.

I have a feeling in the end this argument is mostly about sub-contractor work and long term maintenance contracts, aka jobs for UK citizens. There will be a compromise solution and the UK will be flying Lightning.

13 posted on 12/10/2006 7:58:55 AM PST by USNBandit (sarcasm engaged at all times)
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To: USNBandit

To be fair, their new carriers will be able to operate catapults and conventional aircraft should they need to.

They are not currently being built with them, but the design is supposedly able to to accomodate them.

They'll be part of an EU navy before their careers are done, hence why giving them the ability to operate American aircraft totally independantly is not a great idea...


14 posted on 12/10/2006 8:10:20 AM PST by Axlrose
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To: Axlrose

Just out of curiosity, does anyone know what OS these computers run on in these aircraft? Is it proprietary?


15 posted on 12/10/2006 8:16:48 AM PST by taxed2death (A few billion here, a few trillion there...we're all friends right?)
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To: Axlrose

The bottom line is we dont trust the EU with US intrests or national security. The truth hurts but that is the reality of the situation.


16 posted on 12/10/2006 8:18:05 AM PST by MARKUSPRIME
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To: Axlrose
But the American government fears EU employment laws guaranteeing freedom to work to citizens within the union means this information could leak to a rival foreign power.

How is this different than any other classified information we share with the UK? Our intelligence sharing with the UK has continued unabated since WWII, and for the most part, they've proven themselves to be dependable allies. Why are we worried about them leaking F-35 source code when we continue to share with them much more important material through UKUSA and high-level exchange programs? If we just stamp the source code TS/RELUK, it should be treated with at least as much secrecy as anything else we've given them.

Or we could go the other direction and put it on SourceForge. If it's worth what we paid for it, it should withstand that scrutiny.

17 posted on 12/10/2006 8:48:41 AM PST by Caesar Soze
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To: MARKUSPRIME

>Answer:We wont.<

I wish I had you faith that we won't open up all our trade secrets to the world ....... in an effort to further the establishment of globalization.


18 posted on 12/10/2006 8:56:41 AM PST by B4Ranch (Illegal immigration Control and US Border Security - The jobs George W. Bush refuses to do.)
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To: Caesar Soze

The US trusts the Brits just not the EU.Them being part of the EU,and an EU defense force is where things could hurt the US in the future. We dont know what the future will hold for UK integration into the EU. What we do know is our national security should come first.Dont get me wrong I love the UK,but we dont know how anti-US the EU will become in the future. Chances are it will be against us and cozy up to russia,china,and the islamic world.


19 posted on 12/10/2006 9:24:24 AM PST by MARKUSPRIME
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To: Axlrose

We trust our closest ally with the Trident II missile systm but not the JSF? Please.


20 posted on 12/10/2006 9:28:01 AM PST by Doohickey (I am not unappeasable. YOU are just too easily appeased.)
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