Should the Unborn be Considered Human?

12/06/2006 | Matthew Brazil

[Frwy]

My heart breaks when I think of it. Man has NO right to step in and usurp God's judgement. What a terrible price we are paying and will pay for this sinnful practice. Like you say, they know what they are doing is totally wrong but they choose to have their way no matter what God says. They think they are getting away with it. The Nation pays the price for letting it happen.

[Captain Gates]

Good stuff.... YES, it IS amazing that we have to continue to debate these things....

Life begins at conception... at fertilization.

This is the point when a genetically whole organism is created. People know this just as they KNOW that there is a God.... reminds me a a book with the title 'Does God Believe in Athiests'.

These arguments are here because sinful people want to justify their sins.

[ImaGraftedBranch]

Well done, son. You make me proud. I don't care what grade you get. I know your heart is in the right place, and that is always good enough for me.
Dad

[cgk]

Thanks to wagglebee & kinsman redeemer for the pings! (and anyone else I missed??) EXCELLENT POST/THREAD ULTRA SONIC 007!!

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Pro-Life/Pro-Baby ping to a FReeper-penned Pro-Life thread!

Please FReepmail me if you would like to be added to, or removed from, the Pro-Life/Pro-Baby ping list...

[IrishCatholic]

Bookmark for later review.

[hosepipe]

My Fetus, I mean sister, is a 7th month preemie.. (born at 7 months)
Is she human?.. Sometimes other times shes a twit.. Ok a twittering human..

The U.S. has been aborting people for decades now..

Must be why the White House is "activily for" importing millions of new democrats from Mexico.. to replace all those millions of people "we've" aborted in the last few decades..

You know........... for the economy.. so it can grow...

KILLING AMERICANS is not only done by terrorists..
The U.S. Government funds doing it by the millions..
The U.S. Gov't funds killing people(babies) and yet outlaws killing baby seals..
Life is cheap in the United States.. (human life that is)..

[Nancee]

BEAUTIFUL!!!

Thank you for this great thread!!

Nancee

[franky]

Frank A. Pravone correct to Fr. Frank A. Pavone

[franky]

Résumé / Abstract/NEJM "A single copy Y-chromosome DNA sequence was amplified using the polymerase chain reaction (PCR) from the peripheral blood of 30 women who had achieved a pregnancy through an in vitro fertilization (IVF) programme. The time of conception was known precisely and was confirmed by serial ultrasound scans. Conceptions were dated as the number of weeks after fertilization plus 2, to give a time equivalent to the obstetric menstrual dating of the pregnancy (LMP)." Earliest test for DNA is at 4 Weeks but DNA of fetus has been found in blood streams of mothers at conception. I think this is strong evidence of life at conception. Abortion is intrinsically evil!

[Alamo-Girl]

Thanks for the ping!

[NotADove]

Ironic timing with NASA drooling over the notion that a few microbes in water will prove that "life" exists on Mars, but the medical/liberal community thinks an embryo represents something else.

If there was an award for the best Pro-Life Quote of the year, I'd nominate this statement as 2006.

[Swordfished]

Your paper is very well-written and well-argued. I thought I was reading something from some policy institute until I read that it was your paper.

It seems like an echo chamber in here, so I think you may benefit from a different perspective, albeit poorly-written and unordered. It's just a few things you got me thinking about.

I haven't read a thoroughly convincing argument or philosophical proof either for or against abortion. But perhaps that is because that's the nature of life - we're still arguing and inquiring into the meaning of life, the nature of God, and the nature of right and wrong. Perhaps my standard of proof is way too high. Yet, there are absolute wrongs such as willfully lying to deceive for selfish gain & the taking of an innocent life.

Following the pro-abortion argument to its logical end, you do have to condone infanticide and euthanasia (of persons in vegetative states). I wish you had explored that more in your paper, you seemed to skirt over it and it's a grave issue.

Following the anti-abortion (pro-life) argument to its logical end appears simpler, but really brings up some questions, given the religiousity of some of the arguments offered in opposition to abortion. If human life begins at conception, then wouldn't the use of the morning-after pill be as horrible a 'murder' as an abortion a week before delivery? If abortion is outlawed, shouldn't any kind of morning-after pill also be outlawed? Going further, it used to be Catholic church doctrine that intercourse for purposes other than procreation was a sin. Should this type of intercourse be outlawed? And, should single-parent households be outlawed? After all, God intended for children to have a mother and a father.
If we are going to rationalize everything using the logic of 'God's will' or 'God's plan', then we will have to do so based on the whims of the religious leaders of whatever particular age we live in. That seems like moral relativism.

There are armies of Straw Man fallacies on both sides of the issue. One is the idea that one side claims the fetus isn't 'alive'. Of course it's alive, for all the reasons you stated. And, I'm sure there aren't that many that would say the fetus isn't a 'human' - as in a part of the human species. One sincere disagreement is based on the assertion that humans have something fundamentally unique - beyond what animals do. Human are also animals, but humans have some qualities that transcend animal nature. The sincere question is do fetuses have this transcendent something. The answer to me is no, they gradually develop this in their childhood and probably have it around 4 or 5 years old. I don't remember any of my childhood before the age of 5. The pro-life side then argues, 'but there is the potential for personhood' - the acorn argument. Yes, but the fetus isn't aware of its potential, as thus isn't offended itself by being aborted. As I write this, I actually think abortion may be wrong because the mother has to choose to do it - she knows she's destroying a potential human. But, when you think about 'potential' you have to think that any birth-control you use is eliminating the possibility of numerous 'potential' humans.

At this point, I'm against abortion because I don't think society is mature enough to act responsibly with the power to abort. Yet, I condone all other kinds of freedoms that are inevitably abused by society, so I may have to rethink my position.

[MHGinTN]

Very well done! Now I'm going to read the comments section and dive into the debate ... maybe.

[Rocket1968]

Bump

[MHGinTN]

If you carefully open up an acorn, you will find a very small oak tree enclosed in the meat of the acorn. It is better illustrated with a peanut in the shell, if you're interested. The oak tree is already present in the acorn.

[absolootezer0]

you forgot a whole other issue of unborn being alive.
look up some court cases where a man beats a woman causing a miscarriage (charged with HOMOCIDE) or kills a pregnant woman (DOUBLE HOMOCIDE).

[MHGinTN]

I have approach your 'One' notion with the differentiation of organ and organism ... the zygote is an organism and the stem cells that follow in the lifetime of that organism are the organs of an organism.

[MHGinTN]

"The sincere question is do fetuses have this transcendent something. The answer to me is no, they gradually develop this in their childhood and probably have it around 4 or 5 years old. I don't remember any of my childhood before the age of 5." ... The 'transcendental' something has to be there in order to develop, just as an organism must exist in order for the organism to develop further.

You are referring to the spirit (all alive things have a soul to one degree or another; it is the spirit in humans which raises them from the animal kingdom in general).

Regarding your assertion of 'transcendental onset', I remember things from when I was two years old ... I've had a tool by which to differentiate memories after two and at two, polio contracted at 2 years + 3 months, and I remember much about the treatment from the very start with the disease. I also have a memory from before I turned 2 ... I was introduced to President Harry Truman in Col. Ed Condin's basement, in Fairlington, VA, early in the summer of 1947. But no matter, the spirit must be present in order for aspects of it to develop, so your argument regarding the age of onset is flawed.

[July4th64]

Hi. Well written paper.

While philosophically, an embryo may not qualify as 'human' to some, scientifically it does. It is a natural part of every human life cycle.

So, is it right to take an innocent human life because it doesn't measure up to someone else's philosopical requirements for personhood?

That's basically the same type of argument muslim terrorists use to justify killing the infidel. We don't measure up to their philosophical idea of personhood.

Someday, some of those who are so fervently pro-choice may find themselves on the wrong end of someone else's choice.

[fish hawk]

When I scrolled down, I thought this was Atlas Shrugged.