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To: spetznaz
Trust me on this .....the F-22 has virtually nothing to worry about when it comes to nations like China.

No question the F-22 is best, but we need real numbers. You're not thinking asymmetrically...and you're failing to take account of Chinese progress in passive radar techniques that may counter this particular stealth approach's major advantages. Not to mention that we have no F-22s hardly to speak of because this administration refused to buy hardly any to have enough to put into dangerous theaters. 170...which they still haven't bought... is a complete joke. There certainly aren't any in Taiwan. And we just forcibly "retired" the 60+ F-117...which at least could have provided some useful numbers. And the Chinese likely will be the ones on the offense from the get-go...and the planes on the ground...say in Guam or South Korea, etc. when the balllistic barrage catches us off guard...will be toast. Just like Pearl Harbor. Sitting Ducks.

So besides a heck of a lot more F-22s, we need a real in-depth missile defense capability, both kinetic and directed energy. And we need a restored ASW capability which has been decimated and allowed to become almost a completely lost art to the US Navy. Only our minimal remaining numbers of attack subs give us much capability there. And they have no tactical nuke "fish"...meanwhile, the Shanghai Pact enemy has not disarmed themselves unilaterally in this way.

35 posted on 11/08/2006 5:59:14 AM PST by Paul Ross (We cannot be for lawful ordinances and for an alien conspiracy at one and the same moment.-Cicero)
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To: Paul Ross
I totally agree with you that the numbers of Raptors available (to be made available) is not adequate (when it comes to facing a threat like China). Thus it would really be nice if numbers were increased, although it has to be said that it is a miracle that Raptors are even being made at all. The snip-snip mechanism must have at some point wanted to simply erase the whole project.

The point I was trying to make was that the Raptor is basically beyond anything that China has/will be coming up with for quite some time (at least 2 decades, and that is if Raptor capability stagnates at its present point). While there are passive ways of detecting stealthy aircraft, some of which have alright levels of efficacy (for instance the F-117 would have issues over China, and the F-35 JSF would DEFINITELY have problems over China if it went there solo .....although that is something that will not happen since Raptors will have ensured all REAL threats to the JSF are long ago eliminated .....more on the JSF at the bottom of this post). Anyways, there are some ways of detecting stealth, but the thing is all of these have serious flaws.

Moreover once you add in the Raptor's sheer kinematic perfomance (eg altitude plus Supercruise) then you have a situation where the Raptor could launch a JDAM at a range that simply puts it beyond virtually all SAMs! This is why I was telling Thunder-90 that even WITHOUT stealth the Raptor would still be too much for China. The thing is this, the Raptor can release the JDAM at a range that is basically near the maximum engagement envelop of the SAM, and then it would turn back and fly home. By the time the SAM gets there (even at mach 4 speeds) the Raptor (even cruising at mach 1.5) would be beyond the SAM.

And once you add stealth this ability is even more enhanced.

The interesting thing about the Raptor is that its effectiveness as a strike-bomber is equal to its effectiveness as an air-superiority (actually air-supremacy) fighter.

Anyways, that was my point. China may have some good missiles and planes (from Russia, since the Chinese love to brag how they 'made this' and 'made that'). That is the truth. And the SU-30MKK is a very serious fighter (no matter what some on FR may say, and saying that Russian planes -like the MiG 29 - are crap because they were being shot down in Iraq with ease is a major mistake since for one the IRaqi airforce was a rag-tag unit flying monkey-model versions. Now, let the Indian SU-30MKI and MiG-29s fly against the current Pakistani F-16s, and you would see kill scores that would make Viper pilots cry! The Indian Sus would be destroying Pakistani F-16s while the Paki Vipers are still over Pakistani airspace).

Anyways, China has some good stuff. And they will get better stuff. And someday they will be a major threat unless we gird our loins (and based on some of the decisions being made we are not doing this, but that is another story). However in response to Thunder-90's comments of China having a solution against the Raptor, and even selling it to Iran ....well, that is pure BS. The Chinese do not have the ability, and even if they had the ability to 100% negate the Raptor's stealth (whcih they don't) they still wouldn't be able to handle the Raptor due to its sensory suites and kinematic perfomance (coupled with guided weaponry).

We need more Raptors. That's for sure. And we need to keep a VERY close eye on China, as well as ensure we have sufficient (viable) stratagems to ensure that Shaghai doesn't Pearl Harbor us. That's the truth right there Mr. Ross.

However with all of that the Raptor is simply beyond anything China will be fielding for the next 20 years (oh, and they claim to be working on a stealth fighter ....the JX(X) ....that is supposed to be 'better' than the Raptor. Well, before they do that they need to make jet engines better than those of the Russians).

As for the F-35 JSF. It is a great aircraft (although it has several faults, like weight issues in the STOVL version). However it is no Raptor (and the truth is it was specifically made NOT to be a Raptor ....otherwise what is the use of a Raptor? Add the intention for it to be low-cost ....ha ha, as if ....and the plane is definitely not meant to be a Raptor). However even so it is arguably the second or third most effective jet out there. The thing is, for Australia, is that it will replace the F-111 (a very long range strike plane, which gives Aussie-land real teeth in the region) and their F-18s. The problem is that .....well, let the Aussies explain it in their own words.

The link can be found here:

http://www.ausairpower.net/0830-ASPI-Rebuttal-HR.pdf

They make points on why the F-35, while an amazing plane and absolutely great for the USAF (which will have Raptors as well as other assets ensuring the battlespace is sanitized), will not work for the Aussies.

36 posted on 11/08/2006 6:54:24 AM PST by spetznaz (Nuclear-tipped Ballistic Missiles: The Ultimate Phallic Symbol)
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