Posted on 11/01/2006 7:56:52 AM PST by presidio9
Now that I know your thoughts on that subject, why would God create hell, for people that ask questions like I did? Do you mean that God would send someone to hell for doing something He knew they were going to do, before He even created them? Does that mean that God already has people alloted to go to hell...before they are even born?
Do you want to really know my honest answer to your question, what I really, actually, honest-to-God believe?
(When I answer, I am going to have my own sort come do a jihad on my head, so if you don't really want to know the answer, say "No". But if you do want the answer, say yes and I'll go ahead and damage my FR reputation by honestly answering.)
Sure, besides, what can happen on an anonymous internet forum that really matters?
What can happen is that people who consider you an ally and give weight and respect to what you say on a variety of issues can become offended by your heterodox religious views and no longer consider you an ally.
Nevertheless, I will answer your question.
Thanks. By the way, why would you worry about an anonymous ally on an internet forum?
I don't worry about anonymous allies.
I think about folks who like to read what I write and tell me so, some of whom will recoil in horror when I say what I think about death and hell, and why.
But here goes:
I am a concrete empiricist. The most compelling arguments for the existence of God and an afterlife, to me, are the spirits I have encountered, seconded by the published results of four controlled long-term hospital studies of patients who have died and been rescuscitated. All four studies, which were done in different countries by different researchers, produced statistically similar results. About 20% of those who have died and been resuscitated, report comparable experiences. This strongly bolsters my own encounters with spirits and provides ample concrete proof, to my mind of the existence of the spirit world, of sentient spirits not attached to bodies, and of conscious life continuing for at least some period after physical death.
Note, please, that the Bible and religion do not have one thing to do with persuading me of the truth of this, any more than the Bhagavad Gita or the Koran do. The proof of spirits and life after death and detachable conscious come to me not through avenues that I would dismiss as legends and myths, but through science and personal experience.
Having had that personal experience, I then seek to tie it into reported religious experiences. Of the major religions: Judaism, Islam, Christianity, Bhuddism, Hinduism, the one which has persuaded me of its literal truth is Christianity, once again not because of any particular literary merit of the Bible (which I find to be very confused and relentlessly contradictory) nor through the strength of people saying that THEY believe and repeating it over and over again - Muslims do the same thing, and the sincere fanaticism of others not only does not convince me at all of the truth of the underlying claims, but frankly convinces me that it is a fantasy - BUT FOR the encounters with spirits and the empirical tests, the strong assertions of Christians of their certitude about things they cannot be certain about in fact causes me to believe not in the truth of their religion, but in their own desperation to convince themselves of the truth of something they themselves doubt.
The clinchers for me are the combinatioon fo the Shroud of Turin and the Oviedo cloth, about which I have read the scientific data nearly exhaustively, and been convinced of their non-natural provenance. and the scientific medical studies of the medical miracles of lourdes. I must go now, but will finish on hell in my next post.
Thanks, I'm anxiously awaiting your thoughts on my question.
"I wonder if younger adult tip towards non-belief....and then change as they grow older.."
Without having conducted a poll, it appears to me that today's youth are more 'believing' than the Boomer generation who are, today, becoming seniors.
God does exist, he just doesn't exist in their half.
So, personal encounters with spirits tell me there are spirits, and that consciousness exists not tied to body.
4 hospital studies tell me that I am not mentally insane and hallucinating my encounters with spirits. Thousands of other people have encountered them too, and in controlled studies in three countries, peer reviewed and appropriately medical, the phenomenon of post-death consciousness is demonstrated. That the congenitally blind rescucitees could SEE in their post-death experiences and were as formerly-sighted people afterwards is particularly persuasive.
The Shroud of Turin and Oviedo cloth are the photograph of, and necessary cross-reference to, a miracle that occurred by natural processes, but which COULD NOT have occurred under the laws of probability as we have experienced them.
The international scientific committee has been medically documenting medical miracles at the Marian Shrine at Lourdes for over a century.
That the other religions have no equivalent of the Shroud of Turin or Lourdes persuades me that Christianity in fact has the actual favor of the being with power over spirits and nature. That Lourdes is a place where MARY, specifically, appeared in the 19th Century persuades me that the Catholic Variant of the Christian faith is the one to which God imparts the greatest power. There is only one Lourdes, and it's at a Shrine to Mary. Ergo, Christians who deny the singular importance and blessedness of Mary are demonstrated, by the visible power of God at Lourdes, to be mistaken.
Thus is the general nature of my belief, and my particular Christian denomination, determined.
As to hell, I think that the Christian idea of it derives from the desperate desire to see justice done to the wicked for the really horrible things they do, like kill people, torture them, etc. The Christian apostles, and Jesus with his comments about sexual sin, all said that everyone is sinful, and that God's standard is perfection. Given that, everyone is condemned to die for sin, because everybody sins. And so everybody dies. That's part of it. Death is painful and terrifying. IT, I believe, is the balloon payment for sin. We are all sentenced to death. That's a MAJOR punishment, it's losing it all. We all experience that horror of execution, by God himself, first hand.
But then, at the other side, we wake up, and we encounter Jesus. At that point, everybody believes in Jesus, because they're looking at him. I think that the balloon payment for sin has been paid, largely, by the torture of death we all have to go through. God never grants a pardon. He is hard. And then comes the embarassment and the terrible remorse for bad things done in the life review on the other side. The NDE studies all refer to this life review. ANd THEN comes the forgiveness and grace of Jesus.
Does anyone reject it?
I don't know.
WHY?
I think that God has his own reasons for having things so, which are completely separate from the various stroeis we've made up for ourselves as to why. Remember, WE think that life is great and fight to hold onto it. But God dips souls into flesh then calls them back. Why? Perhaps because it makes us more interesting to HIM to be with on the other side.
Hell is the human conception of eternal justice.
I think our stories are seen through a glass darkly, and that we cannot base our belief in the way God orders things on those stories.
Here is my opinion. You just want to be told that you're right no matter what--even when you're talking in circles! If you're here to get your ego massaged, then no one here is going to indulge you.
I've said it before: God has a plan but he does not interfere with free will. He is omnipresent and knows all the possible outcomes. However he has his own will and his divine plan is for all to return to him. We can accept the plan of salvation or reject it.
Despite man's penchant for getting himself into trouble appears endless, the Infinite Lord is no less resourceful in digging us out of our own messes no matter what we do....that is if we ask him. It has been my personal experience, not opinion, that he does this time and time again.
Now it's my turn to ask you a question. How old are you? Are you truly seeking answers? Because if you're not then please don't waste my time!
Thank you, while I do not agree, I appreciate the time you put in to answer. Perhaps we will find out for sure some day.
I have no need to be right, as I do not believe there is anyway we could prove it anyway. It's all about beliefs. I just like to hear people explain the unexplainable as if they really know. Thank you.
If you do not want your time wasted, why spend it on anonymous web forums? I'm 56, and I do not seek answers, I like to hear what others think.
..and I would surmise in so doing, you get some unexpected answers. (wink) I am sure we can agree that FreeRepublic is a wonderful resource with terrific people.
I hang out here for the same reasons other Freepers do...it's a fun way to relax after a hectic day, and our fellow Freepers are like family. I've been here a long time. Besides, I get better news here than anywhere else!
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.