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To: wbmstr24
"ah no, as usual you are wrong...a transitional fossil would be one that shows a partial leg, a half wing, a half feathered wing and half scaled wing...but all the examples you give are fully functioning features.

That is so wrong I don't know whether to laugh or cry.

The SToE does not predict nor require that there be a half a wing (although flying squirrels and flying lemurs could be considered to sport half wings), or a wing that is half feathered half scaled. (By the way, what do you call those funny unfeather like things on a birds legs?)

We have fossils of fully feathered dinosaurs (other than their feet). They have no wings. That pretty much removes the half feathered half scale wing argument. The non-winged, non-flying dinosaurs also had pneumatic bones, their bones had air sacs in them just like modern birds.

To form a wing from an arm and a hand, all that is necessary is to lengthen the fingers, fuse the wrist, stretch the skin to the ends of those fingers from the body and strengthen the muscle and its connection points.

We have extant mammals that show part of this in action. Flying squirrels have a membrane that stretches from the wrists of their fore limbs to the wrists of their hind limbs. Flying lemurs have even more membrane that stretches from their hind limbs to their tail. This makes it obvious that organisms can do quite well with nothing but a stretched membrane.

Now to elongate the bone structure under the non-half wing feathered membrane. If we examine the bone structure of a bat we see that the bat has fingers similar to other mammals but much longer. It is limited to a featherless membrane with which it flies very well.

The length of bones can easily be modified by 'micro-evolution'. We have evidence of this with our work selecting dogs with different length legs. Length can be changed without resorting to a saltational concept of macro-evolution.

So let's see what we have. We have a small reptile covered in feathers. Any 'half' features there? Nope.

Next we have a descendant of that feathered reptile who has developed a 'feathered' membrane from its finger tips to its body. Can it fly? Nope. Can it jump from tree stump to tree stump? Yup. Better than it neighbours? Likely. Any 'half' wings or limbs? Nope.

Next comes a critter descended from the previous who has feathered membrane from the tips of his front limbs stretching to the tips of his hind legs. He's become a master glider. He can jump farther than his neighbours. He can also surprise his food better than his neighbours so he eats better than they do. To support his weight while gliding the muscles supporting his limbs are larger and the connection points are strengthened. Any half wings or half limbs here? Nope.

The next descendant retains the feathered membrane from his ancestor but has a number of the fingers of his front limbs lengthen. The gliding war has just become more intense. With more surface area to provide lift he can out glide and out hunt those of his relative species without the longer fingers. Any half wings here? Nope.

The next incarnation of this line actually has the lifting surface area reduced. Instead of having the membrane stretch between the front and rear limbs, the front membrane now stretches from the much longer fingers to his mid body and the rear limbs have lost the leading membrane but retained the trailing membrane. What advantage does this give him? He can out maneuver his relative species. His muscles and their connection points continue to strengthen. Any half wings here? Nope.

I'm sure you can see where I am going with this. The point is, wings are nothing but a modification of what the original organism already had. There is no need and definitely no expectation of a half limb anywhere in the evolution. If you've been told that half wings are necessary you've been lied to.

BTW, we have many fossils that describe much of what I have put forward.

This isn't to say that there are not some features we would consider to be reduced in function *given a specific environment*. A penguin's wings are really poor for flying in air, but they are great for flying under water. A Pinniped's flippers are really bad for walking on land but great for swimming. Then we have birds such as the auk family (Alcidae) which both dive and fly but their abilities are reduced from other birds. They dive well but not as well as pure diving birds such as penguins and they fly but not as well as birds such as seagulls which also spend time around water.

"all you are describing the all the variants of good design by God...

I'm describing what the StoE (Evolution) predicts, requires and has been found. What you believe is a strawman, designed by and for creationists. It has no resemblance to the evolution Darwin put forward nor the version of evolution modern scientists have developed.

"thanx for making my argument for me.....

Look again.

"(like shooting fish in a barrel)

Your arrogance is unfounded.

130 posted on 09/22/2006 8:15:57 PM PDT by b_sharp (Objectivity? Objectivity? We don't need no stinkin' objectivity.)
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