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To: Truthsearcher
Thank you for his long and careful reply. It has given me a lot to think about.

I am not sure that individualism as we know it today, was much emphasized in the New Testament. You'll find very little there about individual rights, or gratification, or self-actualization, or fulfillment (I don't think you'll even find the word "individual" in a Biblical concordance) and the ethical codes are explicitly heirarchical.

Ephesians 6:1-10

"Children, obey your parents in the Lord, for this is right. HONOR YOUR FATHER AND MOTHER (which is the first commandment with a promise), SO THAT IT MAY BE WELL WITH YOU, AND THAT YOU MAY LIVE LONG ON THE EARTH.

"Fathers, do not provoke your children to anger, but bring them up in the discipline and instruction of the Lord.

"Slaves, be obedient to those who are your masters according to the flesh, with fear and trembling, in the sincerity of your heart, as to Christ; not by way of eyeservice, as men-pleasers, but as slaves of Christ, doing the will of God from the heart.

"With good will render service, as to the Lord, and not as to men, knowing that whatever good thing each one does, this he will receive back from the Lord, whether slave or free.

"And masters, do the same things to them, and give up threatening, knowing that both their Master and yours is in heaven, and there is no partiality with Him."

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Proverbs 6:20

"My son, observe the commandment of your father And do not forsake the teaching of your mother" etc. etc.

Proverbs 23:22

"Listen to your father who begot you, And do not despise your mother when she is old."

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Colossians 3:18 - 28

"Wives, submit to your husbands, as is fitting in the Lord.

"Husbands, love your wives, and do not be harsh with them.

"Children, obey your parents in everything, for this pleases the Lord."

"Fathers, do not provoke your children, lest they become discouraged.

"Slaves, obey in everything those who are your earthly masters, not by way of eye-service, as people-pleasers, but with sincerity of heart, fearing the Lord. Whatever you do, work heartily, as for the Lord and not for men, knowing that from the Lord you will receive the inheritance as your reward. You are serving the Lord Christ. For the wrongdoer will be paid back for the wrong he has done, and there is no partiality. "

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Confucius' view is, I would say, closer to the Christian family code found in the epistles of Paul, than it is to the secular individualist view found throughout the post-Christian West.

At least, Matteo Ricci (I keep coming back to him) thought the Chinese to be generally chaste, modest, self-controlled, virtuous, and good candidates for evangelization; whereas God knows what even Ricci could do with secular liberals in Montreal, Amsterdam, Sydney, or San Francisco.

38 posted on 09/15/2006 7:18:39 PM PDT by Mrs. Don-o (The Bible tells me so.)
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To: Mrs. Don-o

I agree with you in that ancient Chinese thoughts and values is probably not that different from ancient thoughts and values in other parts of the world. And I do not think children obeying their parents is a bad thing,

The difference though, is this. Like I have said already. Confucius was not a moral philoshopher, Confucius was not a theologian. Confucius was a mercenary scholar who sought patronage from the rulers of the various kingdoms in China during his time. Seeking such patronage, his advice were all geared toward pleasing a ruler, and helping him rule. Although some of the values Confucius proposed were good in of themselves, he proposed them only in the context of how it helps the ruler maintain his rule, and hence whenever each of those values conflict with the primary objective,those values are sacrificed in service of the primary objective.

Do you think if the parent command the child to do evil, or to blaspheme, Paul would still want the child to obey the parent? Of course not, Paul would expect them to have allegience first and foremost to God. God is the ultimate authority and arbiter. Imagine the same system without God, but where the ruler is revered as God, and the word of the ruler becomes the absolute authority. That is Confucianism.

You have to understand Confucianism with that understanding, instead of picking out some individual tidbits that you think are good values. You can't have Confucianism of those isolated tidbits. Just like you can't have the egalitarianism of the Communism without all the other things that comes with Communism. Ultimately Confucianism is about the worship of man as God. Which is why I call it a form of secular humanism taken to the extreme.

Note this is not uncommon in ancient times. Egyptians worshiped their Pharohs as Gods,etc. But those values are primitive, and no modern person should be adopting them as their set of values again. It would be akin to the U.S. readopting all the social values of Paul's time, along with slavery and everything else that existed at the time. Do you think that would be healthy for us? The Chinese government wants to re-introduce Confucianism because they want to encourage values that justify despotism.


39 posted on 09/15/2006 7:56:39 PM PDT by Truthsearcher
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