Haleigh Poutre Almost Victim of Euthanasia, Now Making Good Progress

Life News ^ | September 4, 2006 | Steven Ertelt

[ahayes]

At the time this occurred I thought she was heroic, but as time passed I began to doubt that, and the behavior of your "side" gives me even more reason to think that truth is not a priority for, well, your "side."

As for me, I have no side. I can only speak for myself, and I have never said that Terri Schiavo was brain dead, because I know the definitions. Definitions which have been well established for some time, I might point out. If you and your "side" do not know the difference between brain death, clinical death, and a vegetative state, you really ought to do more research before making such overblown statements about something you are completely ignorant of.

[andysandmikesmom]

And your adage applies to any and all professions...it really does not mean much...people need to inform themselves about the character of the doctor attending them...you dont like your doctor, you dont like the way he seems to conduct his practice, then get another doctor...

This is not hard to do...anyone can do it...if you think your doctor does not have your best interests in his mind, then find one who does...why is that so difficult?...I frankly dont understand this...

[ahayes]

Kind of funny anecdote. . . Years ago I had gum surgery done. I didn't like the periodontist I initially saw because I got a kind of slimy vibe from him. I went to a different doctor and found out some months later that the original doctor had been arrested for Medicare fraud--right before he was going to take a trip to the Caymans for a nice vacation! :-D

[Peach]

(((andysandmikesmom)))

[supercat]

I have seen sentiments posted on FR, telling people to keep their senior parents out of Florida, because going down to Florida will mean their ultimate demise at the hands of evil doctors...what kind of rationality is that?

I think the bigger concern with Florida was not with doctors, but with hospices. Although there are some good hospices that will work to help dying people get the most out of the time they have left, there are some bad ones which do nothing to offer their patients any quality of life except a morphine drip.

Many of the moral and legal issues involved with elderly and their children are complicated and have no really good answers. As an elderly person becomes incapable of managing his or her own affairs, sometimes it's good for their children to take over. If their children are good and honest people, such an arrangement can work out to everyone's benefit. On the other hand, if the children are not good and honest people, such control would allow them to rob and kill their parents.

Some states require the appointment of independent guardians ad litem for such matters. In theory, such independent people will be able to evaluate what's best for the ward without any conflict of interest. Unfortunately, becaue guardians have no personal stake in their decisions, there is often little motivation for them to investigate dilligently. Further, even a dilligent guardian ad litem may have a hard time discovering things a guardian doesn't want him to know about. Consequently, even when guardians ad litem are appointed, it's difficult for them to really do much good.

[andysandmikesmom]

Gads, my mom and dad had a doctor who was also arrested for Medicare fraud...this was some time after my dad had died, and my mom was living with me so I could care for her...but my aunt sent me an article about this doctor, and it did not surprise me at all...

I actually had to kick this doc off my dads case, as he was too weird for me...when my dad was dying of cancer, this doc, who was only my dads GP, wanted me to force my dad to have a feeding tube inserted, as my dad was not eating well...now, my mom and dad had let me know, long before they were ever ill, that they wanted no machines, no tubes, and just have palliative care, if they were terminal...my dads cancer had progressed to the point where he could not be cured, and even really treated, so his care at that point was more pain relief than anything else...but this GP wanted me to force my dad to have the feeding tube inserted...when I refused, he got huffy...and I sent him out the door, and on his way...thankfully my dads oncologist, who was the primary doctor on the case, was a fine man, and was livid at the GP for trying to insinuate himself into my dads case, and trying to force my dad to having something against his will...

Now that GP was a 'bad' doctor in the sense, that he tried to push his will onto people...he wanted my dad force fed, or he wanted to assault him with unwanted surgery...he did not know how forceful I could be, and that I believed that my parents had the final say, not the doc...

So it gave me a great deal of pleasure to see this guy arrested for Medicare Fraud...Karma, as far as I was concerned...

[supercat]

This is not hard to do...anyone can do it...if you think your doctor does not have your best interests in his mind, then find one who does...why is that so difficult?...I frankly dont understand this...

The problem is that as the notion that it's acceptable for a doctor to put other people's interests ahead of his patients' spreads, it will poison the entire medical profession; finding a good doctor will then become all but impossible in many areas.

I would further suggest that in any profession, those who refuse to speak against their fellows' unethical conduct become complicit in it. Not only is silence seen as implying consent, but passive acceptance of unethical conduct can also result in weakening of one's own personal ethics. The longer a person observes unethical behavior while saying nothing, the harder it will be for such a person to resist pressures to engage in such behavior himself.

[andysandmikesmom]

Again, I think you make some good rational points...I worked for many, many years in nursing home settings, and we did nothing but care for the elderly in a loving way, and did everything possible to help their stay until they died, as fine as we could...

Some who were dying sooner than others, due to a diagnosis of terminal cancer, had hospice nurses come right into the nursing home, and gave extra special attention to their patients...I saw nothing but fine care, fine concern for their patients, and a great deal of love...I have nothing but respect and admiration for the hospice nurses I had the privilege of working with...

Again, any hospital, any hospice can be bad, yes...and there again, its up to the patients and their families to do their homework, and find out as much as they can about such a place..and if the elderly do not trust their families, as you say, they can make other arrangements...there is always a way to ensure that one is protected and safe..

In my and my husbands case, now that we are over 60, we have begun to turn our financial matters over to our younger son...we trust him completely...he wants no part of our money, or anything that we own...he wants us to spend every single cent we have before we die...and he makes a fortune at his job, he makes my husbands last paycheck look like chicken feed...so we trust him implicitly...we know positively that he has nothing but our interests at heart, and should we ever need a nursing home or a hospice, I am confident that my son, raised by us, will be as diligent as careful we we have been...

Again, you make some fine rational points...

[andysandmikesmom]

Hi there...and many thanks...(((Peach)))

[Admin Moderator]

To the poster who made the last three abuse reports and asked "are you insane? what the hell is up with you mods? "

This thread has been civil for the last couple of hours and if you restart the flamewar you will be suspended.

Thanks.

[supercat]

that they wanted no machines, no tubes, and just have palliative care, if they were terminal

An IV to maintain hydration can sometimes be very useful pallative care if someone has difficulty taking fluid orally and is not so far gone that they no longer need water.

On the other hand, I see no reason why a doctor should feel a need to be excessively proactive with such things. If a patient complains of dehydration, give water. But if a patient doesn't seem to be suffering from dehydration, don't force it. While I wouldn't accuse the doctor in your case of putting other people's interests before the patient's, it would seem like he needs to recognize that forcing people to do something they don't want can cause more discomfort than would their failure to do such action.

[andysandmikesmom]

I dont know that I agree with your post #607...there have always been bad doctors around, this is nothing new at new...and people are always warning other people about doctors that they perceive as being not the best advocates for their own patients...I have heard and seen this all the time...and we have often grilled our own GP about other doctors, and hes been up front and straight with us about who he does and does not consider to be the best doctors...

So, yes, people and doctors do speak out against those bad doctors...doctors wish to protect themselves against being labeled as bad, by revealing those who are bad...and patients will complain, if their doctors dont serve them well...

It may very well be, that not enough doctors do speak out, but many do speak out, as do the patients of bad doctors...

[andysandmikesmom]

Ah, unfortunately time for me to go...I will just only say, this has turned into a very fine discussion, and I have enjoyed it immensely...see, we can have a variety of ideas, and differences of opinions, and yet still discuss them rationally and civilly...and remain respectful of each other...

And isnt this the goal of FR?...I hope to continue this discussion tomorrow, if time permits, and to all those who contributed and remained calm, I do thank everyone...

Until tomorrow, then..everyone have a very pleasant evening...

[8mmMauser]

Terri's Legacy List and related topics

Reviewing recent posts, one can see we were under seige for awhile and the status of our thread was threatened. The threat is now past.

We have weathered these types of attacks in the past and I implore all to pass over them, let them be and continue our efforts to defend those who would be victims of the snare which was Terri's fate. Doing what we do, we are sure to attract attention of those who would support what was done to Terri and who would wish us to just move on. Not all may have the same agenda of the disruptors, but some may unwittingly side with them. So in charity, I implore all to continue ahead, not dwell on what happened and hopefully, some visitors who were confused as to our direction may learn.

The thread was not taken over despite the effort, and the offensive posts remain as a record for all to see.

As these threads are about Terri's Legacy, victims like Haleigh Poutre are a part of that legacy. So long as we keep topics like this in the forefront, our detractors in the MSM, the far left, and even visiting posters here will fail in their efforts to silence us.

Some visitors may appear truly not to have understood our own perspective and experience, and may be willing to understand our topic, given the chance in an emotion free dialog. For these, as we have done in the past, we are a forum to share our vast repertoire of knowledge and to possibly enlighten them. But let no visitors misunderstand, true discussions differ from disruptive attacks. As I have said before, in my own church, we do not give equal time to the devil out of fairness.

Our threads remain a gold mine of information available to all who would search for the truth.

8mm

Terri's Legacy List

(Original Ohioan from Florida's ping list, update to September 17.)



Terri on the road to recovery before the second stage began.

[8mmMauser]

Ping to a thread from wagglebee...

"These studies have confirmed something I've upheld for years now: that a person in a vegetative state is not dead,” added Fr. Miranda. “They are a person living in a bad state, but they are a person, so we must respect them."

The recent case-study significantly bolsters the argument of opponents of the “brain-death” criterion for organ donation, who fear that severely brain-injured patients are seen more and more as living organ farms than as persons needing care and attention. Hospitals frequently have invoked “brain death” to justify harvesting organs ever since organ donation and transplantation became a multi-billion dollar industry beginning with the first successful organ transplants and the development of immunosuppressant drugs in the late 1950s.

New study questions “brain-death” criterion for organ donation

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[8mmMauser]

Thanks, narses, for the above ping as well.

[8mmMauser]

David Gibbs speaks to a Baptist group...

The international spotlight caught David Gibbs III as lead attorney in the right-to-life trial involving Terri Schiavo, the 41-year-old brain-damaged woman whose case sparked public debate.

But Gibbs, who calls himself a "legal missionary," said Sunday in New Kensington that the link between law and the church started with the formation of the country.

Gibbs said U.S. laws were formed with the Bible as a guide, giving a standard of "absolute truth" to the legal system. He said the founders assumed most people knew and understood the Bible.

"We've reversed what the Founding Fathers had done," said Gibbs.

Schiavo case lawyer says U.S. law rooted in Bible

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[8mmMauser]

Futile Care Law in Texas under fire...

HOUSTON -- If it had been up to her doctors, the Houston hospital where she was treated and the laws of the state of Texas, Kalilah Roberson-Reese would be dead by now.

Instead, the severely brain-damaged 29-year-old woman is being cared for in a Lubbock nursing home, where she's become a focal point in a growing struggle over a controversial Texas law that permits hospitals to withdraw life support from patients whose conditions they deem hopeless -- even if family members object.

Who gets to make decision on end of life?

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[8mmMauser]

From JackLewis.net on World Net Daily item...

Now comes the newest statement on morals and conservative values from the roughly 800,000 people who live between Nebraska and North Dakota, Minnesota and Wyoming: A South Dakota Judicial Accountability plan that would require judges to follow the Constitution.

No more "discoveries" like the U.S. Supreme Court's revelation of a "right" to sodomy, such as was featured in a Texas case not too long ago, plan supporters say...

The plan is fairly simple: A constantly rotating panel of South Dakota residents chosen randomly from voter registration lists would serve as a "super" grand jury. Anyone with a complaint against a judge that isn't resolved by the judiciary could come to the panel.

Citizens in South Dakota fight back against Judicial Activism

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[8mmMauser]

Ping to a thread by Numeaning. Thanks, narses. An example of the slippery slope of those who rationalize the decision to let live or die...

''They hid the body from us for eight days,'' Hialeah Police Deputy Chief Mark Overton said.

Hialeah police are pushing for indictments. They say the clinic staff should have called 911 and sent the baby -- a girl - to the hospital.

''This has to be a homicide, an unlawful killing. It could be manslaughter, but we believe it falls in that realm,'' Overton said.

Dead fetus' age crucial to possible criminal case

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