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To: js1138
Jim Jones was an ordained minister of a major denomination. He did not accumulate his flock under the banner of socialism.

You really couldn't be more wrong about the biography of Jim Jones and the history of his ideological movement.

In 1964 he was ordained as a minister of the Disciples of Christ even though he was already pastor of the People's Full Gospel Church.

He was always part of the radical fringe of liberal Christianity up to that point.

Two years after his ordination he wrote a book entitled The Letter Killeth which rejected the inerrancy of the Bible, calling it "myths", declared that Jesus was not God and not the Messiah, but simply a teacher who had said useful things and some not-so-useful things. He was disfellowshipped from the Disciples of Christ. He then changed the name of his congregation to The Peoples Temple and moved from IN to San Francisco.

In SF he gave speeches outlining his philosophy of "apostolic socialism" and his rejection of orthodox Christian teaching.

As The Peoples Temple grew he claimed that he was one with the spirit of the Pharaoh Akenhaten, the Buddha, Jesus, Father Divine (a recently deceased black faith healer) and Vladimir Lenin.

He gave long lectures about the importance of Marxism and how The Peoples Temple was its perfect realization, and about how evil Christianity and the Christian denominations were.

One has to wonder how all the German people, most of them nominal Christians, were able to gain access to Hitler's secret conversations, as translated into French, then into English.

I'm not familiar with the text you're referring to and not arguing my position from it.

Hitler's public acts of promoting the anti-Christian work of Alfred Rosenberg as the Reich's official philosophy, his requirement that all members of his SS engage in specifically pagan rituals and his appointment of an openly anti-Christian pagan as head minister of the State Church - a man who publicly suggested that the Bible on the pulpit of each state church be officially replaced with a copy of Mein Kampf - all this is proof to me of Hitler's actual religious convictions and it was obvious to millions of German Christians as well.

536 posted on 08/24/2006 7:48:16 AM PDT by wideawake ("The nation which forgets its defenders will itself be forgotten." - Calvin Coolidge)
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To: wideawake

Jim Jones was an ordained minister of a major denomination. He did not accumulate his flock under the banner of socialism. And Hitler paraded under the banner of Christianity.

One has to wonder how all the German people, most of them nominal Christians, were able to gain access to Hitler's secret conversations, as translated into French, then into English.

I would think most of the people who elected him and followed him would have had more access to his published writings and speches.


538 posted on 08/24/2006 7:54:54 AM PDT by js1138 (Well I say there are some things we don't want to know! Important things!")
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To: wideawake; js1138
> Jim Jones was an ordained minister of a major denomination. He did not accumulate his flock under the banner of socialism.

You really couldn't be more wrong about the biography of Jim Jones and the history of his ideological movement.

In 1964 he was ordained as a minister of the Disciples of Christ even though he was already pastor of the People's Full Gospel Church.

Jones became a student pastor for Somerset Methodist Church in 1952. On the side, he would visit and invite people from predominately black churches to attend his services. His message of integration and equality was an odd quality for a white preacher in the '50s. Eventually he'd built up a large enough following that he split off into a new independent church, the “People’s Temple.” Shortly afterward he became an ordained minister under the Disciples of Christ (DoC).

He was always part of the radical fringe of liberal Christianity up to that point.

At the time, Disciples of Christ claimed one and a half million members. Hardly a "fringe".

Two years after his ordination he wrote a book entitled The Letter Killeth
The title was "The Letter Killeth, but the Spirit Giveth LIFE".

which rejected the inerrancy of the Bible,
It pointed out the inconsistencies, errors, indecencies in the Bible, particularly the KJV.
All well known and acknowledged by Christians today, except for literal fundamatists.

calling it "myths",
the word 'myth' (your quote) is not found in the "The Letter Killeth, but the Spirit Giveth LIFE".

declared that Jesus was not God and not the Messiah,
Nope.

... not even those who had lived and worked with him for four years recognized the very same Jesus when he appeared in a different likeness on the road as His followers departed from the tomb. Imagine! they thought they had been speaking with a gardener.7 Can you not see the mystery? God never appears the same way twice.

He was disfellowshipped from the Disciples of Christ.

Nope. The DoC has a congregational "bottom-up" hierarchy. There's no central authority to 'dis-fellowship' a member church. It was expected that Jones' church would be voted out of the organization at the next General Assembly, but that hadn't happen before the events in Guyana.

Hitler's public acts of promoting the anti-Christian work of Alfred Rosenberg as the Reich's official philosophy,

Privately, Hitler was close to Rosenberg's views, but in public, he had to distance himself to curry favor with the Catholic and Protestant churches.

his requirement that all members of his SS engage in specifically pagan rituals
That was neo-pagan Himmler.

and his appointment of an openly anti-Christian pagan as head minister of the State Church

Nope. Ludwig Müller was little known Lutheran minister until the NSDAP "helped" him get elected to the position of Reich Bishop of the Deutsche Christen (DC) in 1933.

- a man who publicly suggested that the Bible on the pulpit of each state church be officially replaced with a copy of Mein Kampf

Nope. That was Rosenberg and atheist Martin Bormann.

- all this is proof to me of Hitler's actual religious convictions and it was obvious to millions of German Christians as well.

Indeed.

638 posted on 08/24/2006 1:39:12 PM PDT by dread78645 (Evolution. A doomed theory since 1859.)
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