Can a good Muslim be a good American?

A friend who knows | 8/11/2006 | Agent Smith

[mjolnir]

What evidence do you have that the establishment clause wasn't meant for Islam? Having fought Libyan pirates, the Founding Fathers were certainly aware of Islam. Just as an atheist need not be a secualarist, a Muslim need not be an Islamist.

You seem to see religion as something that by definition divides people; others, including C.S. Lewis, have seen it differently:

I have been asked to tell you what Christians believe, and I am going to begin by telling you one thing that Christians do not need to believe. If you are a Christian you do not have to believe that all the other religions are simply wrong all through. If you are an atheist you do have to believe that the main point in all the religions of the whole world is simply one huge mistake. If you are a Christian, you are free to think that all those religions, even the queerest ones, contain at least some hint of the truth. When I was an atheist I had to try to persuade myself that most of the human race have always been wrong about the question that mattered to them most; when I became a Christian I was able to take a more liberal view. But, of course, being a Christian does mean thinking that where Christianity differs from other religions, Christianity is right and they are wrong. As in arithmetic--there is only one right answer to a sum, and all other answers are wrong; but some of the wrong answers are much nearer being right than others.

The first big division of humanity is into the majority, who believe in some kind of God or gods, and the minority who do not. On this point, Christianity lines up with the majority--lines up with ancient Greeks and Romans, modern savages, Stoics, Platonists, Hindus, Mohammedans, etc., against the modern Western European materialist.

Now I go on to the next big division. People who all believe in God can be divided according to the sort of God they believe in. There are two very different ideas on this subject. One of them is the idea that He is beyond good and evil. We humans call one thing good and another thing bad. But according to some people that is merely our human point of view. These people would say that the wiser you become the less you would want to call anything good or bad, and the more clearly you would see that everything is good in one way and bad in another, and that nothing could have been different. Consequently, these people think that long before you got anywhere near the divine point of view the distinction would have disappeared altogether. We call a cancer bad, they would say, because it kills a man; but you might just as well call a successful surgeon bad because he kills a cancer. It all depends on the point of view. The other and opposite idea is that God is quite definitely 'good' or 'righteous,' a God who takes sides, who loves love and hates hatred, who wants us to behave in one way and not in another. The first of these views--the one that thinks God beyond good and evil--is called Pantheism. It was held by the great Prussian philosopher Hegel and, as far as I can understand them, by the Hindus. The other view is held by Jews, Mohammedans and Christians.

Of course, you shouldn't accept what Lewis (who was certainly no apologist for Islam or Arab culture) has to say simply based on his authority as an expert on such things (although he was) but I do think his reasoning is sound here.

[Realism]

Islam should be made illegal, so that we deport them all back to Yemen.

Who's going to tell Muhammad Ali he's being moved to Yemen?

[highball]

It was equally sad to see that we needed to do similar things (internment) in WWII.

We didn't "need" to do it.

Just ask President Reagan.

[ArrogantBustard]

Bwahahahahahahaha!!!!!!!

Do yourself a favour. Read the writings of the Anti-Federalists. Having done so, ask yourself if, maybe, they were right. The Constitution works, after a fashion, but to think that the government which exists today resembles more than superficially the government specified in the Constitution is delusional.

[technochick99]

This is all nonsense, of course, but there are refugees from FR who gather at another website who believe all these things and will insist that everybody who doesn't believe as they do are not even Catholic.

And where is that? And, you are right on. The key is the use of reasonableness as the standard. If a particular form of religious expression does not seem reasonable, it likely isn't.

Here we disagree. My check is the magisterium and the Pope. They define Catholicism, not us. I sometimes have problems accepting the 'turn the other cheek' notion as reasonable, but if I don't accept it overall, I am no Catholic, and probably not even a good Christian.

[sinkspur]

While I'm doing doing that, perhaps you can weigh in on whether or not Raider, Dahmer, Burowitz, Bundy, etc. were all all "civilized" because they were simply Americans before they were convicted.

What does that have to do with anything? You are attempting to draw some kind of equivalency between criminals and law-abiding American citizens.

That's foolish.

[airborne]

I'm already in the hills, with well water, a trout stream and lots ofsupplies.

I initially wrote to shake people up. I know we wont take action.

We both know that the US government won't act until thesituation gets way out of hand.

Then it's going to get real ugly, real quick.

[Aquinasfan]

You can save your postings.

This sounds like the position of someone who cannot refute what I've posted.

American Muslims seem to have rejected the rantings and ravings of imams and their fanatic confreres.

Like the ones in Dearborn? The Beltway snipers? The guy who shot up an El Al terminal at LAX? The guy who just shot up the Jewish community center? CAIR? Where are the "moderate" American Mohammedans? Why don't they publicly decry Mohammedan terrorism?

I suspect that you can't accept the fact that Mohammedanism is inherently militant because you're an Americanist at heart.

You can't accept the fact that a religion exists that does not tolerate any other religion (see "Dhimmi"). This contradicts the American notion that all religions should be treated equally by the government, a notion which you seem to have elevated to the level of dogma.

[cyborg]

Not conspiracy theory, it's true. You can disagree with me if you want. I don't take being called a conspiracy theorist as a n insult anyway :-)

[Lazamataz]

We didn't "need" to do it.

We had less justification then, than we do today.

And yet we sit.

Now THAT is sad.

[Lazamataz]

Reeducation camps??? C'mon! Everyone wake up and get back down to Earth. We fought wars to END things like RE-EDUCATION camps.

How are you on Terror Squads?

[EBH]

But simply being a Muslim does not make them traitors.

We must, must find the traitors amongst them. And they are there in positions of authority, not some secret underground network. They are preaching to the point of hate (terrorism)in action. Those English citizens that wanted to commit those acts of terrorism yesterday were not from the middle east. They were indoctrinated right in their own neighborhoods.

How much of this is going on in our own backyard? How long must we act tolerant of such intolerance?

Trucker Threatens To 'Blow Up Cleveland'

A jury in federal court in Akron convicted Damra in 2004 of lying about his links to Islamic Jihad and other terrorist organizations when he applied for U.S. citizenship in 1994.

Grand jury widens scope of charges against Islamic Mosque of Cleveland founder,

Honor Killing Goes Unpunished in Cleveland

KindHearts of funneling money to Hamas

The suspects recruited others to train for a violent holy war against the United States and its allies in Iraq, the indictment said.

Khaled Smaili was the Public Relations Representative for the Global Relief Foundation (GRF), which the U.S. government shut down in December 2001 because of its ties to terrorism.

And the list could go on, these are not some little guys in the big scheme. These are from right in my own backyard, the mosque around the corner! The people named in the indictments are leaders and founders of this mosque. What are they preaching? Money being collected and sent to terrorists...I believe is an illegal activity. Those donations are coming from the people in the mosque...they are aiding and abetting ....

[farmer18th]

And what are YOU doing to keep white Christian men from committing serial murder?

Let me get this straight. You are accusing me of non-sequitur?

America, justifiably, was very cautious about communists in the 30s, 40s, and 50s--as knowledge of their fellow travelers' attrocities spread, even if most of them committed no crime.

If I were to apply for a job at your company and admit that I believe in a religion that would give forced circumcisions to your wife and daughters, should my co-religionists every achieve a political majority, you might look at me very cautiously indeed.

On second thought, you would just call me a good American.

[cyborg]

suboptimal choice I'd say! lol

[Ace of Spades]

If an individual advocates overthrowing the government or harming people? Yes. If they simple believe in communism, national socialism or, dare I say, Islam? No.

[Ace of Spades]

"Islam should be made illegal, so that we deport them all back to Yemen."

So I'll take that as a "no".

Have you ever actually read the Constitution? Be honest.

[cyborg]

Yes this is true. Seeing as how we've not had another attack, maybe there's one bright light in the operation. However, the terrorists are relentless. They'll get through eventually :(

[Red Boots]

I have lived over 9 years in three Islamic countries--Indonesia, Saudi Arabia, and Iran--and visited many more. Based on firsthand experience, I can attest to the fact that Islam is practiced differently in each country. These countries are not in perpetual state of war against foreigners in their midst.

Your statements have nothing to do with the point of my response to your orginial premise.

Nevertheless, you do not know them all. Therefore, your self-congratualtions on the premise that YOU do not engage in gross generalizations about Muslims, unlike other posters here, is false.

[Joan Kerrey]

Can a good Muslim be a good American?

Need to define what is a good muslim first and determine who exactly is giving that definition.

As an American with some understanding of Islamic teaching I'd say no. At the same time many muslims are not practicing or are Muslim in culture only just as in some of the Christian religions. You can say that the Catholic religion is against abortion but there are many who claim to be Catholic who are pro-choice. There are homosexual Catholics and the prisons are full of Christians, Muslims etc. etc. etc.

Labels are deceiving.

[farmer18th]

Would Mohammad Ali even understand he's being addressed? That un-American thug was quoted as saying Zaire was more free than America. I'd send him back myself if I were given the authority.