Posted on 07/17/2006 9:46:10 AM PDT by The Lion Roars
Americans need to ask themselves whether we have had it coming. For consider how we have dealt with Russia's interests and sensitivities.
Listening to U.S. advisers on how to privatize the wealth of the Soviet state, Russians saw their national assets looted by thieves, hustlers and ``oligarchs'' welcomed in the West, as their per capita income sank and their social security vanished.
They saw the United States bomb into submission a Serb nation Russia had always seen as her Balkan god-child, for Serbia's crime of trying to hold on to her cradle province, Kosovo.
They saw U.S. agents, under cover of Bush's ``democracy crusade,'' effect the defeat of pro-Russian governments in Kiev and Tiblisi
They listened as U.S. neoconservatives cheered for Chechen rebels and officials from Cheney to Sen. John McCain bashed Putin and Russia, with some calling for her expulsion from the G-8.
Putin concluded, not incorrectly, that these Americans do not want partners; they want poodles. He imposed a flat tax, stripped the oligarchs of their assets and jailed them or ran them out of the country, liquidated the Chechen murderers of Beslan, started using his oil wealth the way great powers always do, and began to reorient his foreign policy without consulting Washington, as Washington never consulted him.
The minimal price of regaining Russian good will is to start treating her like a great nation. That means getting out of her face, getting our alliance off her front porch, and getting our bases and our Cold War agitprop agencies and pests out of her back yard.
Russia today threatens no vital interest of the United States. Is it too much to ask that we treat Russia and her ``space'' the way we want Russia and Russians to treat ours?
(Excerpt) Read more at mercurynews.com ...
Muscovite-Russians weren't the same as Ukrainian when the Kiev Rus colonists from Ukraine colonized the Finnish-Ugric territories in the east;
- they weren't the same when one became Mongolized the other Polonized (hey, at least Poles were Slavs);
- one was, and continues to be a part of the European civilization, the other like the Turks is an Asian-European hybrid;
- they weren't the same and spoke different, incomprehensible to the other languages during the Cossack period;
- were they the same people, Ukrainian Cossacks would not resist Muscovite attempts to erode their independence, and produce figures like hetmans Vyhovsky, Doroshenko, Mazepa, Orlyk, Polubotok;
- were they the same, Ukrainians would call the other by the same name as themselves and not use "Moskal" (meaning "Moscow-people") as the primary designation for Russians throughout the 16, 17, 18, 19 and less so in 20th centuries;
- Shevchenko would find no need to write poems calling for Ukrainians to get rid of their oppressors' chains (I wonder who the oppressors are);
- and at last, were Russians and Ukrainians the same, a Ukrainian National Republic would not have to be proclaimed independent in Kyiv in 1918.
All this took place before the Soviets came (and "created" a separate from Russia Ukrainian nation). For almost all of it's history, Central and Eastern Ukraine was cutoff from W. Ukraine, so it did all that on its own accord, without the Galicians. As a non-Galician I resent this presented picture that only Galicians are patriotic.
"You know it had. Defore bombing of Serbia the rate of approval of United States in Russia was same as today approval of Putin. About 70%."
Certainly, I ALWAYS conduct my foreign policy via public opinion poll, why shouldn't the Bush administration? (/sarcasm).
Yeah, well it's called "mythmaking". The FIRST occurrence of this story, (that Kyiv Rus just moved to the east and Muscovy/Russia is continuation of Rus, is in the 19th century). If I'm not mistaken I think it's the Russian historian Karamzin who's the author. Neither Ukrainians nor Belorusians in the 13th-14th-16th century, nor now view it as such. According to history, not to Russian mythmakers, yes there was some depopulation in Central Ukraine because of the Mongol invasion and there were migrations to the east AND to the west (Galicia). But it was no Moses-type exodus of the entire Rus people to Moscow. Pretty much all agree that Moscow prospered not because of the boost of the Rus population (or Rus elite migrating to Moscow) but because of its obedience to Mongols. Kyiv is razed- but Vladimir-Suzdal is doing just fine. Mongols with Moscow terrorize and racketeer someone- Moscow pockets a portion of the tribute. Not bad for a period of "Tatar yoke".
You miss the point - for all practical purposes Ukrainian and Russian SLAVS are genetically the same. So much so that scientists cannot distinguish between the two. Karamzin - a very Russian name, eh? ;)
My point in this whole debate is to point out the ridiculousness of reaching back centuries to fight today's "battles." Ukraine is now an independent country and should take pride in that. When they start blaming others for their "woes," especially when they reach back centuries, or to Soviet times when they were complicit in said "woes" it can be perceived as weak.
For a so-called American, such as "spanalot" to further the ideology of UNA/UNSO and to refuse to condemn the leader of that group for calling on Ukrainian soldiers to revolt and kill Americans is disgusting and treasonous. Surely you, as a Ukrainian national, would feel the same if a fellow Ukrainian was supporting an American hate group calling for the deaths of Ukrainians?
>>>If we dont protect Israel who will?
I have no problem providing air support and troops to Israel, if required -- for Lebanon, Syria, or Iran. But I have a problem with providing a socialist country housing, food (unless they are starving and they are not), or any other non-defense support. We certainly should not be sending them our best technology. As we know, it has a history of being traded away to other countries.
Support - Yes. Wealth Transfer - No.
Likewise, I'm against sending a similar $10 billion a year to Egypt. They need to stand on their own. Besides, we're going broke.
Lets discuss the fact that the Russian Prosecutor admitted that it was Russian tanks that fired on the building - collapsing the roof and causing the most casualties.
Its useless - he is an unabashed Russophile who has yet to condemn the communist and socialist coup in Ukraine.
great post
"Rus, which is titled The Millennium of Russian Christianity"
What does Russia have to do with Rus which is Ukraine. Looks like your revisionist history.
I will bet you a million dollars it is published by the church of moscow.
"founding of Rus, which is titled The Millennium of Russian Christianity"
You have a bad habit of misleading - The title is not prefaced by "Founding of Rus"
http://cti.stores.yahoo.net/is18miofrch.html
I am glad to see that you maintain the long Kremlin tradition of obliterating the national identity of another subjugated group, the Lemkos.
Rus is not Russia - never was and never will - no many how many sermons the KGB priests of the Russian Orthodox priests give on the subject.
"Its useless - he is an unabashed Russophile who has yet to condemn the communist and socialist coup in Ukraine."
More twaddle from FR's resident Ukrainian RED-BROWN nationalist. I joined the US military to fight communism - you, instead, went to the Soviet Union as a "tourist." You are a fellow traveler and communist enabler. You support a foreign government over the US. And worst of all - you REFUSE TO CONDEMN THE UNA/UNSO - A UKRAINIAN NATIONALIST ORGANIZATION WHICH HAS CALLED FOR THE DEATHS OF AMERICAN TROOPS. Traitor.
"I joined the US military to fight communism "
Umm - I thought you said you were 10 years old during Viet Nam?
Where did you fight the communists?
"More twaddle from FR's resident Ukrainian RED-BROWN nationalist. I joined the US military to fight communism - you, instead, went to the Soviet Union as a "tourist." You are a fellow traveler and communist enabler. You support a foreign government over the US. And worst of all - you REFUSE TO CONDEMN THE UNA/UNSO - A UKRAINIAN NATIONALIST ORGANIZATION WHICH HAS CALLED FOR THE DEATHS OF AMERICAN TROOPS. Traitor."
Romanov, you have quite a phobia for Ukrainians. Do you worry sometimes that they have planted exploding Easter Eggs and WMD kielbasies under your bed?
I know there are a lot of people like you in the Kremlin - I'm not sure why as Ukrainians saved their ass during WWII with over 10 million dead.
But perhaps they have doctors there that can help with your phobia.
Nations don't have 'friends' they have 'allies'. If you want an ally you need to have common interests.
Sure they're similar to each other- Ukrainian gave birth to the Russian.
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