Planned Parenthood Celebration Jolted by Abortion Survivor [Colorado]

CatholicEducation.org ^ | May, 2006 | Ted Harvey

[Locomotive Breath]

I'm only obligated to volunteer my opinion. If you want additional information about me then you provide an example and go first. Just remember, as it says on the preview page, "Loose lips sink ships".

[Locomotive Breath]

If you go to the NIH links I provided earlier then you'll see that this is far from settled. We can get into a link war. You provide links that say yes and I provide links that say not so fast.

And I'm still having trouble understanding a mechanism how saline in utero causes oxygen deprivation when the oxygen supply comes through the umbilicus.

[Locomotive Breath]

He didn't care about her CP per se. His sole reason, from the beginning, for having her come to perform and then introduce her was so he could get the floor and change the topic from CP and start a rant about PP during the time in which he was meant to be simply introducing her. The CP was only a pretext, a foot in the door, to hide his true agenda. That's the only reason he was allowed to speak about her. If he had said his intentions were to introduce her so he could put a face on an abortion survivor and condemn PP he would not have been allowed to speak. So he hid his intentions because he knew his behavior would be unacceptable.

As a counter example, if she were a healthy abortion survivor without having CP and without being a CP advocate he could have would have still done the same under some other false pretext. "Here's my sister-in-law and she's a great singer. Can she perform for us today and may I have the floor to introduce her?" He was being dishonest and he knew it right from the start. I pray for those who can't tell the difference.

[beezdotcom]

Speaking of obligations - I need to apologize to you for continuing this argument in public. If you're Christian, you'll understand why...and even if you're not, suffice it to say, this is no way for me to build bridges. Please accept my apology, especially for my snarky attitude.

[Locomotive Breath]

Thank you but no apology is necessary - this is just an irrelevant debating forum to blow off a few minutes trying out thoughts on things of interest to whoever's here. If I couldn't stand a little give and take then I wouldn't post here. (I've seen worse exchanges in certain church committee meetings - finance is the worst.) If I've said anything that's really truly offensive to you then likewise please accept my apologies.

[editor-surveyor]

The baby-killing gang can't stand to see the proof that their "it's not really a human being" line is a dirty lie

A lie they cannot possibly believe themselves, unless the Lord has sent them the strong delusion of their desires.

[FJ290]

If you go to the NIH links I provided earlier then you'll see that this is far from settled. We can get into a link war. You provide links that say yes and I provide links that say not so fast.

I'm sorry, you were saying that there is no proof that oxygen deprivation caused Cerebral Palsy. Then you added the insult to readers here that believed it that we're in the same category as John Edwards.

It appears you found a site that bolstered your opinion only, when there are sites that provide information to the opposite. This has nothing to do with a links war, this has to do with accuracy. I hardly think that the Cleveland Clinic doesn't know what they are talking about when it comes to Cerebral Palsy and they say one of the causes is oxygen deprivation.

And I'm still having trouble understanding a mechanism how saline in utero causes oxygen deprivation when the oxygen supply comes through the umbilicus.

Here's why. Because they inject toxic levels to induce abortion:

"Surgical abortion involves the use of a mechanical device (suction or vacuum aspirator), surgical instruments (forceps, sharp curette and cervical dilator) and/or long needles (for injecting a deadly concentration of saline).

Surgical Abortion

[FJ290]

While you're at that Surgical Abortion site please read this:

Saline Injection or Salt Poisoning Technique

Saline (or other toxic level chemical) injection is performed when a pregnancy is 16 weeks and beyond (when enough amniotic fluid is present to surround the baby.)

Procedure Description:

Note: This procedure may require hospitalization.

1.
A long needle is inserted through the mother's abdomen (belly) into the amniotic sac.
2.
Amniotic fluid is removed from the sac and is replaced by a very strong salt solution meant to kill the baby. By the 4th month of pregnancy, the baby has been drinking and breathing in amniotic fluid to help the organs develop properly. However, when the salt solution is substituted for the normal amniotic fluid, it causes severe burning of the baby's skin, eyes, mouth and lungs.
3.
Labor may begin within 24 hours of the saline injection resulting in the delivery of a badly burned, shriveled, dead baby.

Complications / Side Effects:

Delivery of a Badly Burned Infant
The infant may survive this procedure and be delivered alive. But, may not live for a very long time thereafter.

Future Infertility Problems
The woman may have future infertility problems if the uterus has been badly scarred during this procedure.

[hispanarepublicana]

Wow. Just wow. This is a riveting story.

[Locomotive Breath]

Thank you for that extra information. Given my background of adoption I already knew a little about it. It's a horrific technique. I have no reservations at all understanding how someone subjected to this technique, if they survive, can be horribly injured. Please understand that I'm not really trying to be argumentative. However, your post still does not provide the mechanism of hypoxia as the postulated cause for her CP.

In fact there's quite a bit we don't know (and it's probably just as well). Did they do the procedure "improperly" which allowed her to live? Did the procedure induce labor - was she born shortly afterward and survive or did she go full term? Maybe the hypoxia occured after the live birth because her lungs were injured? Aside any political issues, the circumstances of her birth and survival are interesting in their own right.

[FJ290]

Thank you for that extra information. Given my background of adoption I already knew a little about it. It's a horrific technique. I have no reservations at all understanding how someone subjected to this technique, if they survive, can be horribly injured. Please understand that I'm not really trying to be argumentative. However, your post still does not provide the mechanism of hypoxia as the postulated cause for her CP.

I guess how her hypoxia came about could have been cause by toxicity. How she escaped horrible injury is probably due to what we Christians call a miracle. I know as a Christian you believe in that. If you want to look at a medical reason for how she escaped horrible injury, maybe the solution given wasn't strong enough to cause severe burns or maybe she aborted faster.. before it could burn her skin. Only God knows the answer.

Gotta run and get back to work. Lunch break over, LOL! Have a nice day.

[Locomotive Breath]

I assert based on the NIH site, which frankly I believe is more authoritative than the links you gave, that the attribution of CP to lack of oxygen is tentative and not fully medically proved. If you want I can go dig up the links upon which they base that and they will be just as authoritative as the Cleveland Clinic. The NIH represents the nationwide medical consensus which is "undecided". Some individual practitioners and medical practices will agree and some will not. There's a reason they call it the "practice" of medicine and there's a reason people go for second opinions. There are no medical certainties. All I'm asking is that you admit there might be some uncertainties.

But if you want to play the dueling links game, here's the Mayo Clinic

Treatment of Cerebral Palsy at Mayo Clinic

However, doctors don't completely understand the cause of most cases of cerebral palsy, which are present at birth (congenital). For many years, doctors and researchers believed that cerebral palsy was caused by a lack of oxygen during birth. Now they believe that only a small number of cases are caused by problems during labor and delivery.[my bold]

Doctors and researchers have now identified many possible causes of congenital cerebral palsy, including:

* Maternal infection during pregnancy, such as rubella or other viral infections

* Severe jaundice in newborns, which may be caused by infection, severe bruising or problems with red blood cells due to ABO or Rh incompatibility — two incompatibilities between the blood of the mother and her fetus

* Abnormal brain development before birth, resulting from genetic causes or metabolic disorders

* Disturbance to brain circulation before birth, caused by an artery spasm or blood clot, similar to a stroke in adults

Note that they specifically say that the oxygen starvation theory is out of date and now not thought to produce any but a small number of cases. Because of her unique birth she may be the one in a million but how can you not admit there is some doubt? There is clearly not the level of certainty as presented by Harvey.

In Jessen's case it makes no difference in the sense that she could have been born healthy and her effectiveness as an anti-abortion advocate would be unaffected. I do think that the science was too unsettled for John Edwards to destroy a doctor's career and transfer millions of dollars from our pockets into his. If you are insulted by holding the same medical opinions as John Edwards then that's not something I can do anything about. I do believe that Harvey/Jessen and Edwards both overstated the linkage between birth hypoxia and CP. Their motives for doing so are almost certainly different.

As confirmation, after the number of C-sections in NC skyrocketed as a result of John Edward win in court the incidence of CP remained unchanged. If there is a cause and effect it should have shown up.

[pollywog]

Thankyou SO MUCH for this thread. I have read her book and wept through the entire book!! It is a MUST read for anyone serious about pro life!!!

[pollywog]

This wasn't a lie. Read her book and get the FULL story.

[Locomotive Breath]

We may be working at cross meanings. I was criticizing Harvey's actions with regard to the Colorado legislature and not Jessen's story. I do not doubt her story in the least.

The only exception I might have is the claimed medical relationship between the attempted abortion, the lack of oxygen during birth and her cerebral palsy and she simply may be repreating what the doctors told her at the time, and some of the medical thinking has changed since then.

There is a lot of her story that is not in the above article. Could you give me a summary of the book and what it adds?

[leda]

unbelievable!

it's obvious how the denver post feels about this ... just tragic!

[FJ290]

I assert based on the NIH site, which frankly I believe is more authoritative than the links you gave, that the attribution of CP to lack of oxygen is tentative and not fully medically proved. If you want I can go dig up the links upon which they base that and they will be just as authoritative as the Cleveland Clinic.

Really? If your attitude is that the only authorative sites are yours, I'm done debating with you. I feel that you're angry because you were proven to be wrong when you stated with absolute surety that it wasn't caused by lack of oxygen to the brain and I showed sites where it was.

Not only were you so sure of yourself, you went on to insult people who didn't agree with you by putting them in the same class as John Edwards. Actually, Edwards was right in this case and you weren't.

Now I can pull up as many or more sites that contradict that of Mayo Clinic which is not as highly esteemed in America as the Cleveland Clinic. To what avail? Just to have you say that yours are more authorative? I don't have time to play games.

[Locomotive Breath]

I never stated categorically, as you are doing, one way or the other the origin of hers or anyone elses CP. Reread my post. I'm saying it's an open question, but you just can't admit any level of uncertainty can you? You're right and everyone else is wrong? Done indeed.

[MHGinTN]

Reality is far more insidious. The leftist defending the slaughter of unborn alive children know damn well the children are alive in the womb; the truly sick and dirty truth is, they deem the slaughter a right of women ... that's right, the leftists defending this holocaust believe it is right to promote the wholesale slaughter because it empowers liberalism. THAT is demonic in nature, a concept the left scoffs the louder at, spitting in God's eye every time they do it yet they do it under the satanic guise of religion, with people like Revs. Barry Lynd and Al Sharpton, and Jesse Jackson, and professional liar politicians like Al Goreghoul, and bill'pants on fire'clinton, and Dungheap Harkin, and Babs'catbox'Boxer, Ted'the swimmer'Kennedy, and ... well, the list is too long to place it all on this thread, but suffice it to say the list is mostly full of democrat party leadership, with a Specter and a Frist tossed in here and there. There is no delusion, it is willful service to evil for empowerment's sake.

[MHGinTN]

LB is a (in Seinfeld's words) 'last worder', so debating isn't really the exercise with LB, getting the last word in is what it's all about. It really cannot help itself ...