Posted on 06/21/2006 5:15:34 AM PDT by MountainMenace
I believe Emory was founded as a Methodist school.
You may have me on Unitarians.
Or American Indians, or Haitian voudon? (I lived in Haiti for a number of years and have also lived out West.)
You may have me on Haitian voudon. I really have no use for it nor really consider it a religion.
You may think Eastern religions are more important, more virtuous, or more exotic . . . but that doesn't necessarily make it true.
You are putting words in my mouth.
I didn't say you were against the death penalty, I said you must have serious problems with it if you were unclear of the meaning of substantial justified harm to another.
I was asking you to define your terms, so I could better understand why you don't consider yourself to be a sinner.
I wasn't wondering what I think.
Cut the riddles and go back to the topic, or stop wasting everyone's time.
SD
I don't think killing in the context of capital punishment or self-defense is a sin. Both are examples of substantial JUSTIFIED harm on another.
Voudon is a pretty darned dangerous and evil religion. It draws a good part of its pantheon from the Catholic saints. But it is a religion nonetheless, and is also practiced in Spanish-speaking areas of the Caribbean as "Santeria."
Our local district court had to detail a person to clean up all the black roosters found decapitated on the courthouse steps on Monday morning.
The ECUSA is no longer a church. We should probably just call it a cult that worships anal sex.
Well, neither do I. But these are certainly extreme examples.
What about the everyday things you do. How do you know the effects are not substantial enough or are justified to declare yourself free from sin?
Maybe you act selfishly or rudely to someone. To you it's no big deal, not "subtstantial." But to that person it could be a contributing factor to something larger.
That's the whole point. Even the smallest failures to live perfectly disturb the world. In ways we often can not predict or know.
To simply justify oneself by claiming all one's actions are insubstantial or "justified" is self-serving.
SD
I don't think any major religion defines "being rude" as a sin.
That's the whole point. Even the smallest failures to live perfectly disturb the world. In ways we often can not predict or know.
I said I was not perfect. I do not consider myself a sinner.
To simply justify oneself by claiming all one's actions are insubstantial or "justified" is self-serving.
You generally agreed with me on substantial and justified. Where am I being self-serving.
Of course they do. Treating people unkindly is sinful. Do unto others, etc.
I said I was not perfect. I do not consider myself a sinner.
Yeah, I get that. I am saying that your definition of sin to only include "substantial" and "unjustified" things is wrong. If you are not perfect, then you have sinned.
It's really that simple.
You generally agreed with me on substantial and justified. Where am I being self-serving.
You are being self-serving in thinking everything you do is either justified or insubstantial in terms of the harm you introduce into the world.
When you accept anything less than perfection as a goal to live up to, you invite rationalization of one's own defects into the "insubstantial" category.
SD
I can't top it, but I can say I have 2 friends who are Wiccan High Priestesses. We don't agree on much in terms of religion and politics, but they are both terrific fun and I thoroughly enjoy spending time with them.
They are debating changing the name of the Trinity to "Mother, Child, Womb" and other strange combinations. See this thread:
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1652320/posts
I like my friend very much too. I console myself with the thought that her parents were both atheists, so she's better off at least believing in God . . . maybe in another 30 years I can get her into OCIA . . . < g >
Sinning is not about creating substantial, unjustified harm to your fellow man. It is about offending God. Not believing that you are a sinner is in itself the sin of pride. You might want to read the Ten Commandments again and then read Jesus' words about them. As an example, Jesus said that a man who looks at a woman lustfully has committed adultery in his heart. There are many other examples. Have you ever gossipped, had a rude thought about someone, wished for something someone else has, or argued with someone because you wanted your own way? These are sins (backbiting, detraction, envy, lack of humility), although not as serious as murder or stealing. The seven deadly sins are pride, anger, envy, covetousness, gluttony, lust, and sloth. There are a lot of sub-categories to each of them. Most of the sub-categories have to do with how we think and not so much our actions. Offenses against love for our fellow man begin in our minds and hearts, and even if we never actually "do" anything harmful to someone, just thinking harmful things is still a sin. Jesus said, "What comes out of a man is what defiles a man. For from within, out of the heart of man, come evil thoughts, fornication, theft, murder, adultery, coveting, wickedness, deceit, licentiousness, envy, slander, pride, foolishness. All these evil things come from within, and they defile a man." Mark 7:20-23
Converting a liberal Episcopalian church into a brewary has got to put a smile on God's face! Wish it would happen more often.
I'd take it a bit further. Have you ever been God? If no, then you are a sinner. Sin isn't something we do - it's something we ARE.
Perhaps your god is too small. I don't mean that as an insult, but an observation.
Where is the sin? I can still be rude and obey the "do unto others,etc. Does your religion say it is a sin to do unto others?
Yeah, I get that. I am saying that your definition of sin to only include "substantial" and "unjustified" things is wrong. If you are not perfect, then you have sinned.
I didn't use the word "only". I was trying to make as general statement as I could and as concise as possible. Are you saying that just because a person is imperfect he has sinned? If a person makes picks up the wrong fork at a formal dinner he has sinned? Does your church teach that?
You are being self-serving in thinking everything you do is either justified or insubstantial in terms of the harm you introduce into the world.
Show where I might be adding substantial unjustified harm into the world. I cannot see it.
When you accept anything less than perfection as a goal to live up to, you invite rationalization of one's own defects into the "insubstantial" category.
Everyone must accept less than perfection as a goal. It's called being human. We make millions of decisions each day. If we strove for perfection, we would never get out of bed.
Hmmm. Decision one. Do I turn off the alarm clock with my right hand or left. Which would be the perfect solution. My right hand is closest but if I roll out of bed my left hand could be used with less effort since I also have to get out of bed. But, should I roll out the right side and walk around the bed or do I wait for my wife to get up and then slide across to the left. But if I slide across, I will disturb the bedcovers more and it will take more effort to make the bed.
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