Buchanan - The stealth amnesty of Rep. Mike Pence

Townhall ^ | June 13, 2006 | Pat Buchanan

[Spiff]

Good points.

Thank you.

[sinkspur]

The Pence plan will be absolutely shut out of the upcoming conference discussion as it bears no resemblance whatsoever to either the security first, conservative House bill or the reward-the-illegal-aliens first, liberal Senate bill.

Which is why it could very well serve as a starting point for discussion.

Pence recognizes reality. You and the rest of the my-way-or-the-highway crowd don't.

[Extremely Extreme Extremist]

"Since immigration reform must begin by securing our border, my plan incorporates the Border Protection, Antiterrorism and Illegal Immigration Control Act, already passed by the House, in its entirety, with only minor changes. Thus my plan will add port-of-entry inspectors, end the policy of "catch and release," put to use American technology such as unmanned aerial vehicles, require a security fence to be built across our southern border, and require the Secretary of Homeland Security to certify that all these border security measures are substantially completed before any new guest worker program would begin."

http://www.opinionjournal.com/extra/?id=110008502

[Extremely Extreme Extremist]

Please see the post above yours.

How is it amnesty?

[Extremely Extreme Extremist]

Because it allows people who have illegally entered our country, used false SS numbers, and may be guilty of identity theft to go outside the country for a week, be processed, and allowed back in to work and eventually apply for citizenship. It legalizes their illegal status and they pay no penalty for violating our laws. They are bypassing the people who applied to come here legally. Where does it say that the eforcement provisions must be passed first?

Limited number of guest worker visas

The number of guest workers will be limited. After the program is up and running, there will be a period of three years when the market and the needs of U.S. employers will set the limit on the number of guest workers. Not letting the market and the needs of employers govern the number of guest workers initially will prevent illegal aliens from being willing to self-deport. After three years of the program, a reasonable limit on the number of W Visas will be determined by the Department of Labor based on employment statistics, employer needs and other research. After the three-year window has closed, this limit will be strictly enforced.

http://mikepence.house.gov/Issues/Issue/?IssueID=2146

[Robertsll]

Buchanan is an idiot. Anything he says is bad. Recently, Buchanan wrote a peice defending the Marines and attacking the liberal media. We all must therefore be opposed to the Marines and be supportive of the MSM because Pat Buchanan is always wrong. The guy can never be right, nor make one good point. We can never debate his points because we always know for a fact he is on the wrong side of every issue.

He is especially wrong on this immigration debate. Pat Buchanan is a defeatist and negative xenophobe.

You, Ikemeister, my friend, sound like one of those loony Buchananites. Like Charles Krauthammer said, you all need to have your meds adjusted because you do not support amnesty.

MSM - "You are all either racist or intolerant."

Bush - "You are not compassionate! Don't bother me now, let me argue with my strawmen. Mr. Rightwing strawman, you are for mass deportation. Mr. Leftwing strawman, you are for granting automatic citizenship to all illegals. I disagree with both of my strawmen, I am a compassionate conservative. I am for earned amnesty citizenship for guest workers who are currently undocumented. Deportation won't work, Mr Rightwing strawman."

Fred Barnes - "You are hurting the Republican Party. Think about all those Hispanic votes."

Charles Krauthammer - "Get your meds adjusted!"

False conservatives on Free Republic - "You are all Buchananites! And we'd like to have a few words with Bush's strawmen too!"

[taxed2death]

"How is it amnesty?"

___________________________________________________________


Here illegally>>>>>>
leave and register in their country>>>>>>>>
come back as legal guest workers>>>>>>>
can then apply for citizenship.

Looks pretty straight forward to me.

Sure looks like a pathway to citizenship = amnesty.


I see your point that a legal guest worker is not specifically "tied" to a pathway to citizenship and thus can continue on indefinitely just being a legal worker.

It is my contention that "amnesty" means forgiveness. The fact that some legal workers might not apply for citizenship does nothing to discount the fact that they *can* obtain citizenship, hence my position that this is in effect a "pathway to citizenship" (amnesty).

[Robertsll]

You need to read the Pence plan. It is not only amnesty, it is unworkable.

Pence recognizes that these are illegal aliens who have violated the laws and sovereignity of this country by entering illegally. Many, if not most, are also guilty of identity theft and using phony or the SS numbers of others, which are felonies.

The idea that 12 million illegals can self-deport, be processed in less than a week, and return to the US is totally unrealistic. Remember, only about 60% of the illegals are from Mexico. We will need these Ellis Island centers set up all over the world. As someone who has worked for the USG and been involved in visa issuance overseas, background and police checks cannot be done in a week. It will take weeks and months to do such checks in the home country as well as in the US. The same holds true for fingerprint checks and medical examinations, especially in the numbers indicated. If the State Department is going to have to issue these visas abroad, it will take a huge investment of new resources to do such processing.

There are some unanswered questions about what happens when the applicants cannot pass the medcial examinations or something comes up in the police and background check. Why would the illegals take that chance and leave the US, a country they entered at great risk and expense?

Currently, there are 6 million people in line waiting to gain permanent residence status in the US. Most are located overseas awaiting to come in under the caps on various categories of immigration. Pence proposes to process the 12 million illegals in the US in less than a week and have them return to the US to live and work with so called W visas, which are for a total of six years, renewed in two year increments.

These illegals are receiving preferential treatment because they can live and work in the US and then apply for citizenship six years down the road. It is unfair to all the others who have been waiting in line for years in hell holes waiting to come here. Why are these 12 million getting special treatment?

For the first three years of the Pence Plan, there are no limits on the number of "guest workers" who can receive the W visa. Essentially, all the illegals in the US now will be eligible.

It is painfully obvious that the less than one week out of the country for 12 million people who violated our laws is just a scam. It has more to do with optics than actual substance. Going through the motions should fool no one.

This is the amnesty portion of the plan. At the end of the six years, the W visa holders have the option of going home or seeking citizenship in the US. This allows them to stay in the country and obtain citizenship, probably via a green card. This was confirmed by Pence's spokesman, "After the third term, they have to apply for permanent legal residence or leave," said Matt Lloyd, a spokesman for Pence.

This is the same as the McCain/Kennedy/Martinez/Hagel's plan of going to the back of the line nonsense and an earned path to citizenship. Just allowing these people to live and work in the US while changing status is jumping the line and being rewarded for illegal behavior. Presumably, these people will be allowed to continue working while the processing is being done.

There is no way we are going to deport someone who has been here illegally for up to 20 years and, then six more years under the Pence plan. Moreover, why should they be allowed to apply for citizenship at all? If I lie on a federal job application, I not only don't get the job, I face a jail sentence and/or fine. There should be no path to citizenship period.

"But the plan met immediate resistance from Rep. Tom Tancredo (R-Colo.), leader of House Republicans who oppose moves toward legalizing undocumented immigrants. "Mike Pence is making the same mistakes that the president has — using the straw man of mass deportations and redefining amnesty to suit his interests," Tancredo said. He added that he was baffled by Pence's shift from an enforcement-only position.

You defeatist Tancredo clones are doing way too much thinking. Jump on the amnesty bandwagon. It is very easy to do. You don't have to have logical arguments or anything. Just use your heart, not your head. Then, move onto the next political debate. Be at peace. Don't forget, you have a much more positive outlook with nice rose-colored glasses on.

Use this illegal "problem" to your advantage. Start your own landscaping business and hire a few illegals to work for you. Convience yourself you are doing the right thing and the moral thing by employing suffering people who would starve without your help. Make a six-figure salary. Bush is not enforcing the laws, nobody is. Be compassionate and start your own business hiring illegals or requested your own indentured servents (who can be deported if they don't meet your standards). With billions of people living in poverty, indentured servitude is far better than what they what they have been through. Don't lose any sleep hiring indentured servents or illegals, think of yourself as a modern-day saint for helping people.

[kabar]

Pence has modified his plan since he spelled it out to the Heritage Foundation on May 23rd. However, I still have some questions about the current iteration.

and require the Secretary of Homeland Security to certify that all these border security measures are substantially completed before any new guest worker program would begin."

What does "substantially completed" mean and what new guest worker program is he talking about? Pence has two guest worker programs, the first applicable to those already in the US illegally and the other for "new" guest workers. The first program has a window of three years with no quotas and then the Department of Labor takes over.

In the WSJ article, Pence states My immigration reform plan does not favor illegal immigrants. Anyone may apply for a guest-worker visa at the new Ellis Island Centers; indeed, the plan may actually work to the advantage of applicants who have never violated our immigration laws, since guest-worker visas will be issued only outside the U.S.

There will initially be no cap on the number of visas that can be issued; for the first three years, the market and the needs of U.S. employers will set the limit on the number of guest workers.

I wonder what Pence means "by work to the advantage of applicants who have never violated our immigration laws." Do they gain preference or move to the head of the line? No cap on the number of visas means that we could have millions more come in as long as an employer supports their application. This sounds like a recipie for disaster.

After six years, a guest worker must decide whether to return home or seek citizenship. But he will do so under the normal rules and regulations of our naturalization laws. There is no path to citizenship in my bill.

We are back to amnesty and we have added another wrinkle, i.e., guest workers can seek citizenship while still residing and working in the US. The normal rules and regulations of our naturalization laws assume that there is some basis on which to grant citizenship. I would assume that attaining legal permanent residence would be more than enough for these guest workers. It gives them almost all the benefits of citizenship save voting. They can bring in their families and are eligible for federal and state benefits.

Is Pence proposing that his W visas be the equivalent of immigrant visas rather than non-immigrant visas?

In the WSJ article Pence states, "This bill is tough on border security and tough on employers who hire illegal aliens. It will include a guest worker program--but it will not include an amnesty (nor require a huge new government bureaucracy to administer the program)."

Based on my 36 years as a USG bureaucrat including 28 years in the State Deparment and a former holder of a Consular commission, I find this an incredible statement. In order to process the number of people involved during the initial three year period of the program, it will require a large investment of USG resources no matter how much initial screening is done by private firms.

Based on the WSJ article, it appears Pence is making it up as he goes along. He is trying to change the gift wrapping to satisfy the critics of his plan, but the contents of the package have not really changed. It is amnesty. Also, if he stresses the enforcement approach too strongly, he will undercut any effort to encourage the illegals to comply with his plan.

[Robertsll]

Let's say, I rob a bank and am caught. I have $7,000 I earned from robbing the bank. The government says we won't send you to jail if you just pay a $3,000 fine. Is this amnesty or is this a punishment?

The $3K fine is actually a reward for my illegal actions. I stole $7K and use money that I obtained illegally to pay a fine. I keep $4K. This means robbing a bank pays well.

These illegals came here not for citizenship; they came for jobs, economic opportunities... a better life. Lesson: come here illegally, work and make money, pay a fine with money you earned illegally and you can stay and live in the United States. Which was their goal, right? To stay and work here.

[deport]

Since you were touting Pence the other day I thought I'd ask how you feel of his approach to the immigration issue. Do you agree with his plan of allowing workers to file via an Ellis Island Center back in Mexico?

[Republican Wildcat]

So now Pence is now a "favorite pol" of the Bushbots. Not too long ago it was just the opposite.

You people just make things up as you go along and can't keep your story straight.

[Rockitz]

Where in the Pence Plan are the taxpayers of this country compensated for:

1. the billions of dollars in health care, education, insurance, infrastructure, and incarceration costs that employers of illegals have foisted upon them over the decades,
2. the billions of dollars of lost revenue by businesses who employed legal employees because they lost business competing against those employers who hired illegals,
3. the billions of dollars of difference in wages between legal residents and illegal immigrants that have artificially lowered the salaries of legal residents,
4. the countless lost opportunities for legal residents who never got a chance to be employed because an illegal took his or her job?

This compensation should be paid back to the taxpayers, the legal employers, and slighted workers through seizure of business and personal property of past and present employers of illegals and jail for such employers as well as the public servants who didn't enforce the laws against these individuals.

[rdb3]

And with this, I'm sealed on the deal. Pence's plan is the way to go!

[Grampa Dave]

"And with this, I'm sealed on the deal. Pence's plan is the way to go!"

BOL!

Isn't amazing how easy some people make our life. If they are against something, we should probably be for it!

[BlackbirdSST]

are some of your responders here not fireing on all cylinders? exactly why all this venom for buchanan? i notice none of his attackers are actually debating his points.....

LOL! They never challenge facts, NEVER! Blackbird.

[kabar]

That is shutting the barn door after the horse has gotten out. Pence is advocating no caps for three years. All of the guest workers will procreate and also bring in their familites. Thye are also given preference to legal immigrants waiting in line. The caps still apply to them.