Posted on 05/30/2006 7:02:57 AM PDT by gallaxyglue
Believe it or not, it wasn't always that way. I graduated in 1966, having had my education financed entirely by loans (some of which I paid off while still in school), a couple scholarships, and a lot of part-time work. When I left, I owed about $1,500. College wasn't always so expensive.
And yes, I had something to show for it. I walked right into a nice career, followed by a great retirement.
I paid my way through and was debt-free and used my chemistry degree. It's not that way anymore. The cost of a college education is becoming more and more disconnected from its value.
Worst are the "vocational" schools that recruit high school dropouts who can't even read, before or after they have gone into hock.
Well, it depends on what you want to do.
If you want to grow your own business, or be a welder, or join the military, then yeah, college is a waste of money.
If you want to be a physicist, biologist, or a nuclear engineer, well, that's a whole different kettle of fish. :)
It's valuable for many people, but I agree that with enough motivation, you can probably learn far more through independent study and reading than most people learn in college.
What did you do instead of college, and what do you do now? Do you think college would have been worth it if you weren't paying anything, or would even the time have been a waste?
I'm a political science and economics major, and in my experience I've actually found that, except for political theory, most of my poli-sci classes have actually been far less useful (i.e., intellectually stimulating, since few liberal arts classes are actually practically useful) than other "gen ed" requirements such as English, theology, and even biology.
When it comes to the liberal arts, I really believe the professor is often more important than the subject: a good professor can make any subject challenging and stimulating; a bad professor can make anything nearly worthless.
Sure. Not saying I agree with it BTW. In fact, as I've said, I'd just as soon hire on well-spokenness, common sense, and a basic education in business and customer service which can be easily imparted OJT.
Anyway, first of all, some degrees have merit. IMO, and based on my experiences, in the business world, degrees such as history degrees, sociology, communications, and some other liberal arts degrees have no value whatsoever other than simply "maturation through the college years" which would have come anyway working or whatever.
In my role now, I can hire whomever I want, when in fact I do hire. In former roles, working for a contractor, you need degreed people so that when you bid contracts you can charge accordingly. They're government contracts, so perhaps that helps explain it.
The greater the credentials, title, education, experience, etc., the more you can charge. Also, you need certain types (disciplines) of credentials for certain types of contracts.
A lot of it is pure BS and that's obvious from behind the scenes. But that's the way that the game's played. As I've said, give me a person with common sense, an ability to get along with others in an environment where ideas are key, and a few other things yet minus the educational credentials, and I'll opt for that person every time. I'd prefer to train people my way or the way that they need to be knowledgeable.
Also, degrees do often have meaning. Not all college degrees are worthless. A history major is in all likelihood never going to be a decent engineer all other things being equal. The more specialized the disicipline, the more relevant the degree.
I.e., would you want a "self-learned" doctor with a degree in communications only performing surgery on you?
LOL I take it that you're joking.
Great point. Not only more important in that way, but in imparting their spin on things.
I was in a German lit class with two friends of mine. We all did about the same but I always argued with him from our diametrically opposed perspectives. Mine was conservative and his was clearly liberal. Anyway, I got a grade lower in that class than my buddies, who I know didn't do a significantly better job in a very subjective class grade wise.
So the views of the prof matter too, sadly. Not that that has any bearing on the crux of this conversation. LOL
True. Luckily, my college is pretty conservative, but I'm expecting a class or two like the one you describe next semester. IMO, the better professors will actually respect you more if you reasonably (and appropriately) argue an opposing viewpoint.
P.S. I guess my point was that one does not learn all that much by simply sitting around for a semester listening to some lib wax his personal ideologies. Most liberal arts courses feature lib professors.
I can see it in the hard sciences, particularly medicine. But I have a hard time understanding it on the corporate level. Sure, if you're hiring "blind," you'd take a degreed engineer over a high school grad. That's just playing the odds. But I have a degree in mechanical engineering and any mechanic knows more about cars than I do. Yet I now work as professional artist, and can draw rings around anyone with an art degree. Fortunately credentials are (mostly) ignored in the art world.
What really ticks me off is that large companies won't promote from within employees who have demonstrated aptitudes for technical positions and don't have formal degrees. I'm in my mid-40s, and I think most young people would be better off skipping college and going into business for themselves or starting out with a small company. In most cases college retards social and intellectual development.
On the flip side, even if one is, it does not mean that they will be either. Same as in sports. How many of us dream of playing in pro sports when we're young. Yet, how many of us, relatively speaking, actually do? Not many percentage wise, and even fewer, the elite in that realm is you will, reach the pinacle(s). NFL, MLB, NBA, NHL, MLS, etc.
Unfortunately the corporate world values credentials, often times regardless of how or where obtained, over competence and certainly common sense. Then of course there are a host of office political factors that go into play. My former immediate boss was a moron in terms of being creative, analytical, and able to effectively get things done. Our clients thought he was a moron. Yet, he went on to become a partner. He thought he knew everything about everything. Go figure. What do you think the odds are that a client not knowing the company, would listen to someone else with "lesser" credentials in the company over him as a partner?
As well, in that biz, perceptions meant the world and the contractors know/knew it. Actual results didn't matter as long as everyone was fat, drunk, and stupid. Believe me, they took advantage of that in spades.
It was also the government sector which is why I left it. The real business world can't function like that socialistic racket. Not that the private sector is ammune to those things, but companies that have those things present often end up paying the price. See Enron, e.g.
Thanks for your insights. They're helpful. It's tough to see the whole picture. And it's even tougher to figure out a way to beat the credentialing racket.
I'll admit that university is not for everyone, but the anti-education sentiment on this thread is troublesome. Unlike the perception one would get from this thread, university is not all about womyn's studies and basketweaving. There are plenty of results-oriented reality-based people in the business, science, and engineering disciplines. It's possible to make it with a degree from the school of hard knocks, but it is uncommon and difficult. For every Bill Gates and Steve Jobs there are millions of people working in food service and retail. Dropping out of high school or college is not a good thing for your career, Horatio Alger not withstanding.
You beat it by yourself. You refuse to take "no" for an answer. Start your own business(es) if possible. Gotta have something to sell first. A lot sells however and often the best ideas are the most obvious. Don't let anyone around you talk you down or out. Screw 'em! Shed 'em.
When people buy things (goods, services, whatever) they don't care what the credentials are by those that sell them. Unless it's surgeries, etc. You get the point though.
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