Posted on 05/16/2006 9:24:55 AM PDT by Paul Ross
Tell me, what is a REAL conservative? From what I can see most of today's conservatives are FOR big gov't and they continue to support this president (for whom I voted in 2000 but not in 2004) no matter that he hasn't used his veto power once.
That's your problem. We had a choice between Two Lessers.
Who do we Least Distrust. Who do we Disagree with Least.
That's who we have. Rove more or less celebtrated being untrustworthy: "Where else can they go"?
Actually, I much more deeply admired and more highly rank the late Caspar Weinberger, but I still appreciate Don as the next-best...certainly among those in this Administration.
And he has been fully supported by GWB.
Actually I could name some serious kerfuffles between the two, which have remained fairly secret. One that came out was the Moscow Treaty, pursuant which, wanting to "lead by example" the President ordered Rumsfeld to stop dragging his feet, and unilaterally decommission all our MX missiles. We don't have enough money budgeted to recapitalize our continuing force deteriorations in major segments of our defense armaments...yet the President is compelling the SecDef to squander about $16 billion (over and above what it would cost to merely maintain) to accomplish his pell-mell unilateral disarmaments...
Meanwhile, as Rummy feared...the Russkies are keeping their first strike inventory of SS-18s fully deployed and function until 2017...
Another area is Naval force levels. But we won't go into that. Another time.
My Point is proven.
LOL! Lilliputian.
No, I'm not saying that...I'm saying indirectly more is happening on our borders in terms of WMDs, dirty bomb materials, etc - There are absolutely ways to do this without having to check every single back pack (and granted clearly no system is 100% secure). -
If it was easy to secure this border, it would already be secure. You make it sound like it will be easy to do, so easy we can do several other related tasks at the same time with a lot of the same manpower. If it will be easy to secure the border would you mind explaining why it has not been done?
No, it is not easy in the least (and no border will ever be 100% secure - though it seems like a minority on the right seem to think this is possible...or that this border security problem just developed under GWB).
Additionally I don't agree that it will be a lot of the same people running the different tasks/policies of a comprehensive immigration reform package. Border agents (along with NG) will be responsible for the border security....while construction crews will continue to look to build fences / walls were appropriate (this notion that GWB Administration is completely against walls or fences is simply false. VP Cheney clearly stated yesterday not only do they agree with them in certain places but some have been built already).
Those doing the paper work and database responsibilities for all new temporary workers will not at all be the same as the border agents (NG) and or those constructing new fences / walls.
Those manning the additional UAVs and other technologies will not be the same as those responsible for temp worker program, or the construction crews on the border...while certainly there will be some overlap here within the border agents (but that is why an additional 6,000 will be added).
Furthermore creating a system (and incentive) for those illegal here now to come forward and show they want to be supporting citizens of this great nation along with going through whatever assimilation programs are needed is exactly the process to me that needs to begin.
For those that have criminal records they will be held until a time when we feel it is secure enough to ship them back. That seems fair enough to me considering your valid concerns about simply sending them back...before our border is at a secure enough level that we deem appropriate.
After 6 years? As Michelle Malkin said: Too little, too late.
along with the large flaws in our temporary worker programs.
What flaw would that be? His non-enforcement of the laws proscribing illegal hiring? Or the keeping secret the names of the Leviathan violators among employers?
He knew he couldn't trust Tip O'Neill. But he gave them a chance to be honorable. Anyways, he needed their cooperation on the Defense Buildup. Which he got. And we are all the better off for it.
...and you expect us to believe Reagan thought they "really" meant it when it came to immigration enforcement down the road)
It was members of his own party who pushed the Amnesty. Not just the RATs. Look it up.
- Please, we're adults here -
Well, we conservatives are. On the Illegal Alien Issue you and the President though, appear to be disloyal, disengenuous, immature and irresponsible.
Take that load of BS to a 6th grade civics class. Nobody is buying it here
You seem to be talking about your own position with that comment.
And that is easy for a chicken little like Michelle Malkin to say..isn't it (then again she doesn't even have the stones to back up her own words when it comes to her not cutting and running from her own house).
And with your logic unless something is done within the first what?? Shall we say first 2 years in office why bother with addressing it after that fact? How utterly juvenile (which again, fits extremely well with lots of Ms. Malkin's thinking).
R. Reagan obviously shouldn't have addressed immigration in 85/86 because hell too little too late. Ditto that for his foolish FICA tax increases on all Americans (d*mn if only he would have taken such advice on Soc Sec....Since he hadn't dealt with it within the first 2 years of his administration then he shouldn't have bothered - And we all wouldn't be suffering under his foolish tax increase - Maybe Ms. Malkin has something there after all!
Please. It was members of his own party that were promising spending cuts too! (and then never voted for them when push came to shove).
Stop making excuses. R. Reagan passed full no-requirement amnesty because he believed in it and he did nothing substantial to bolster border security in the next several years in office.
Furthermore to give him a silly out like "Congress promised him rainbows and butterfly's" is to belittle a man of Ronald Reagan's character. R. Reagan was not fooled or duped by Congress in 1986 over immigration (he has surely learned his lesson with the nonexistent "promised" spending cuts of the early 80's).
GWB is smartly looking at a systematic process for dealing with both the problems of illegal and legal immigration.
Same things were said about slaves, Germans, Irish, etc. Here's even a little of Ben Franklin on the subject.
Benjamin Franklin considered the Pennsylvania Germans to be a "swarthy" racial group distinct from the English majority in the colony. In 1751 he complained, "Why should the Palatine Boors be suffered to swarm into our Settlements, and by herding together establish their Language and Manners to the exclusion of ours? Why should Pennsylvania, founded by the English, become a Colony of Aliens, who will shortly be so numerous as to Germanize us instead of our Anglifying them, and will never adopt our Language or Customs, any more than they can acquire our Complexion?" (The papers of Benjamin Franklin. Ed. Leonard W. Labaree. New Haven: Yale Univ. Press, 1959. vol 4:234).
But what do I know? You are probably right.
I happen to be a conservative who believes in pushing the conservative agenda through the Republican Party. I have NEVER voted third party, or stayed home for an election.
All the "true" conservatives with whom I am acquainted believe in disagreeing with Republican leadership when they believe they are wrong, and supporting them when they are right. I was not as concerned about the Port Deal, but thank God we disagreed with the President regarding Miers and thank God we are willing to speak out against the current (and past) handling of illegals.
I object to sincere and genuine disagreement being characterized as a temper tantrum.
If President Bush would present his plan the way you do, I think many more would be in support of it. I am not sure if this is what you want to happen or if this is how you understand it will happen, but I have not heard anything that suggests President Bush supports a fence other than in the urban areas and around POAs; fences have been and already are being built there. I hope he does plan to build fences in at least the hot spot areas.
Those who are supposed to enforce immigration laws now and are not doing such a swell job of it are the same ones that will be expected to enforce any new immigration policy. They will be overwhelmed with new illegals flooding in while trying to deal with the current bunch if the border is not secured first.
I think much of the dissent is caused by the President not making it clear that border security is at the top of his list of border issues. I have been listening to him carefully for assurances and explanations of how all this is supposed to come about and I have not been assured by what he has said. I have the impression that he has been skimming over talking about border security while pushing for a guest worker plan. I think any plan to legalize illegals without a secure border in place will fail. I could be wrong- but so could you.
You and I will have to agree to disagree on some of this, I still want to see the border secure before we start legalizing illegals. I do think if the border was secure, there would be more support for a plan to deal with the illegals.
Really. Back it up yourself. You're making a rather over-the-top lamer position.
And with your logic unless something is done within the first what?
How about after 9-11? How about when Congress gave him 2,000 more Border Patrol Agents for the Mexican Border in 2003...but he refused to spend it.
The thing which keeps utterly gutting any sense of sincerity in his enforcement efforts are the failures to enforce against employers...way...way...way down from when even the Communist-In-Chief Xlinton was in office...and his recurrent affirmative linking of the purported "impossibility" of deportation of the Illegals. A link which he apparently never, ever, fails to assert. I think he is congenitally incapable of speaking about Illegal Aliens without arguing that point. The only improvement we've seen rhetorically is that he has modified his "taking jobs Americans won't do" contention.
Enforcement is enforcement. It doesn't depend on a Guest Worker program. In fact it makes things worse. Border Enforcement would be more obviously workable if there were no free ride on illegal alien hiring. So... far from being a postive "systematic" approach, it is self-destructive of the purported ends. His solution is self-defeating. He is indubitably trying to pull a fast one. More Three Card Monty. A transparent hoax on the voters.
And they're not buying it.
He had a shot at restoring his credibility. And he blew it. Big Time.
The Rove Strategy has backfired and destroyed the would-be triangulator...who just could not give it up. They clung to it at all costs as if mere persistence would change the voter's minds as it did on less essential issues. Unfortunately for the White House, the Base is paying keen attention, and parsing everything carefully...and reading between the lines. And looking at actions, not just the words.
Well, not everyone who calls themselves a C would really be a C. Just like not everyone who calls themselves a Christian really lives a Christian life.
I'd argue that 'conservative' means 'careful', basically.
Careful with money. Careful with choices. Careful to implement only effective, fair solutions to problems.
Which I believe translates to smaller govt (careful with what govt we allow), and strong on defense/security (careful with our security).
Most people lean C, but I think have a tendency to want the govt to enforce *their* beliefs on others. That's human nature, I suppose.
Bud, you clearly want to stick to your doom and gloom outlook....to your unwillingness to be intellectually honest (hell you can't even be honest between non-excuses for Reagan and demands on GWB).
Keep being enlightened by the juvenile rants of silly Ms. Malkin (who is moving from her house! Proof enough).
GWB will continue to lead this Country and the World in the right direction. He will continue to be a man of tremendous character...that you can't see that speaks volumes about you...not him.
As for the Rove strategy backfiring. Keep wishing and hoping. The GOP will keep both chambers of Congress come this Nov (just as GWB has won the last 3 major elections).
The smartest and most commonsense approach is the one in which GWB is proposing. To look at a systematic reform process on the whole legal and illegal immigration system. Which completely makes sense.
Lastly your notion that we are going to deport over 11 million people is simply silly! And anyone who is willing to be intellectually honest on this subject understands this reality. We could hardly removed one Cuban boy back to his father without this nation erupting on itself (try doing that with 11 million individual cases.....not to mention the logistics of such a silly idea).
And oh...d*mn!..The Senate just voted to start on a 375 mile fence / wall....(but we already know your move the goal post answer to this....."it's not enough"..."and too little too late"...."I'm a chicken little".
Thank God for the adult leadership we have in President GWB.
I am of mostly Pennsylvania Dutch descent myself. I speak English only.
In the 1960's most Americans of Mexican descent spoke English only. Today most speak Spanish, and more than a few speak Spanish only.
About 1968 the melting pot was smashed, and the Reconquista began. That is our problem.
You are the one dishonest about Reagan. He enforced our border far more seriously...and against illegal employment. You never looked it up. And Reagan was rather busy defeating the Soviets...who dwarfed the threat of Osama Bin Laden.
And frankly, Bush has had both houses of Congress. He had the spur of 9-11. But did he do the right thing? No. Never did anything politically but push for his systematic "comprehensive" hoax. Never enforced against illegal hiring. Until, surprise, just last month. And then catch-and-release happened en mass...despite promises from months ago that it would end. "W" Credibility on Illegals? Slim to none.
Keep being enlightened by the juvenile rants of silly Ms. Malkin (who is moving from her house! Proof enough).
So? You're just lame on this. Keep it up.
GWB will continue to lead this Country and the World in the right direction. He will continue to be a man of tremendous character...that you can't see that speaks volumes about you...not him.
So when the President baldly states falsehoods: "it is impossible to deport 12 million" or that they "do jobs Americans won't" ...that's the conservatives problem...not his character? Man, you're just seriously messed-in-the-head.
As for the Rove strategy backfiring. Keep wishing and hoping.
Not wishing for the loss of a single seat...well we wouldn't miss Chris Shays or Arlen Specter.
The GOP will keep both chambers of Congress come this Nov (just as GWB has won the last 3 major elections).
If you will note, there is a huge shift that has occurred since then. Much more subtantial than anything we have ever seen before. Evidence of collossal political mishandling...in the White House. And this issue is pivotal. And the President's inability to grow up, (i.e., be an adult), and learn, and do the right thing on the issue of Illegal Aliens is now contributing mightily to putting us all at risk. You want to blame the Conservatives. Blame the man willfully spurning his own party. Who is more immature...the 35+ million conservative voters...or the man who is adamantly pissing them off?
BTW: If I "wished" ill for the GOP...I would be telling him to do exactly what he is doing. And telling him how noble he is. And how visionary. Just keep up the good work, sycophant. You will get a Rat future yet...but you won't like it.
The smartest and most commonsense approach is the one in which GWB is proposing.
No, what J.D. Hayworth and Tom Tancredo advise would be the 'smartest and most commonsense approach'.
To look at a systematic reform process on the whole legal and illegal immigration system. Which completely makes sense.
There is nothing broken with our laws but the enforcement end of things. And guess who controls that.
Lastly your notion that we are going to deport over 11 million people is simply silly!
Oh, silly me! I should have realized that the President wasn't telling the truth about deporting 6 million people then!!!!
Man, you keep circling round and round about that same absurdity! You repeat it obsessively! Beginning to sound like you guys have Dementia.
And anyone who is willing to be intellectually honest on this subject understands this reality.
Frankly, your not intellectually honest, so forgive us if we don't credit your claims to what reality is.
We could hardly removed one Cuban boy back to his father without this nation erupting on itself (try doing that with 11 million individual cases.....not to mention the logistics of such a silly idea).
Elian Gonzales got to the U.S. as a political refugee legally. His mother sacrificed her life to that end. The Xlinton's moved Heavan and Earth to deny him that status...and to placate their pal Fidel in Havana.
None of the tragedy of Elian Gonzales is applicable to the deportation of Illegal Aliens who snuck in. And I don't hear an uproar over the 6 million deportees that the President already boasts of having sent packing.
And oh...d*mn!..The Senate just voted to start on a 375 mile fence / wall....(but we already know your move the goal post answer to this....."it's not enough"..."and too little too late"...."I'm a chicken little".
Yes you are a chicken little. Your little RINO political sky is falling. Not mine.
So..a token 375 miles? Do you think that's "enough"?
Thank God for the adult leadership we have in President GWB.
I thank God, but History will judge which of us is right, we conservatives, or you RINOs. I trust in God, not Princes.
Man, you keep circling round and round about that same absurdity! You repeat it obsessively! Beginning to sound like you guys have Dementia.
This is where you in a nutshell prove you can't be intellectually honest! - Stopping and returning over 6 million people at the border is 100% different then removing those 11 million from the interior of this Country (of which many have roots of sorts now established).
Again, from Thomas Sowell to Rush Limbaugh the notion of deporting 11 million people is utterly ridiculous! - Yet you foolishly and dishonestly try and equate stopping 6 million illegals at our borders as the same process as removing over 11 million who are currently within our interior - These are completely two separate situations. They are not the same at all. From the logistics of locating and gathering them, to driving / flying them back, to the MSM covering such events, etc, etc, etc.
Bud, go back to suggesting that it is fine for CIC (you don't trust and call disloyal to this nation) to send soldiers off to war (as long as you agree with it politically). That wraps your warped mindset up completely.
So..a token 375 miles? Do you think that's "enough"?
Ahh, I love it! Of course it ain't chicken little! Now is it. Thanks for the parting laugh.
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