Defending science education against intelligent design: a call to action

American Society for Clinical Investigation ^ | 01 May 2006 | Alan D. Attie, Elliot Sober, Ronald L. Numbers, etc.

[CarolinaGuitarman]

"Oh, so we know the universe could not have been created by G-d because there are no universe factories with "gxds" creating universes on an assembly line."

I never said we could know either way. Why did you have to resort to a prevarication? :)

"I note that evolutionism and theistic religion have one very strange thing in common: the conviction that mankind bears a unique moral obligation to acknowledge his creator."

And I note you're full of it. :)

"Why else would so many atheists act as if there was something "wicked" or "immoral" about denying evolution?"

They don't, you made it up. :) BTW, most people who accept evolution are Christian in the USA, not atheists.

"And as you are well aware, I am a southern redneck."

And how would I have been aware of that?

"I am well aware that self-hating Southerners have to go out of their way to attack Fundamentalist Protestantism to make up for it."

When did you stop your therapy? And, btw, you assume too much.

"But oddly, I am unaware of any burning compulsion to attack anyone else's religion."

Nor am I. You have an active imagination. :)

[dread78645]

> Spare the prostitute?

"Do not STRIKE her."

Only if she tied the scarlet cord in the window.

[Zionist Conspirator]

"Why else would so many atheists act as if there was something "wicked" or "immoral" about denying evolution?"

They don't, you made it up. :) BTW, most people who accept evolution are Christian in the USA, not atheists.

Oh come now. Why are evolutionists on a crusade if there is no fundamental belief in some sort of moral obligation? Why the romantic view of people like Galileo as "martyrs" if what they discovered was of no import whatsoever?

The people who insist the loudest that life has no meaning are the very ones who act the most as if this were not the case. I wonder why you can't see that. Atheists loudly condemn past generations for believing the earth was the center of the universe, but they are the ones who created and sponsor Earth Day and encourage nature worship and even a worldwide totalitarian state to ensure the viability of life on this supposedly totally unimportant planet. Why? If life really is just a fluke, why investigate anything? Ever? Why solve "problems?" Why teach the truth? Why anything at all? I don't see ants fretting themselves into anemia over "problems" or "ethics" or the possibility that a meteor may one day destory this meaningless planet, but the people who insist the universe doesn't care about us act as if the destruction of the earth would frustrate the entire reason for the universe's existence.

BTW, most people who accept evolution are Christian in the USA, not atheists.

Stop playing games. Neither you nor I are chr*stians, and many chr*stian Theistic evolutionists are "ID"ers ("ID" merely being Theistic evolution that insists that G-d occasionally slips from the realm of speculation into the world of hard facts). But I find it most interesting that atheist evolutionists have so much scorn for people like me while respecting people who listen to the voice of science when it comes to creation but who cover their ears and say "La-la-la!" when science tries to tell them that a man can't rise from the dead or that bread and wine can't become the body and blood of a man who supposedly died 2000 years ago. At least people like me are consistent. But somehow this curious attitude seems illustrative of the entire evolutionist position: the purpose of life is to acknowledge the purposelessness of life.

Make lots of money, now. Make Ms. Rand proud.

[LibertarianSchmoe]

He accused me of misspelling a word I never even used

My bad. I just saw that softball hanging there, shut my eyes and SWUNG!

[Quix]

I guess we'll have to just differ on our definitions of what panspermia is or will be labeled as, defined as.

Actually, panspermia is well-defined. Your definition of the term is not the standard accepted definition.

You seem to ignore part of your own reference to the Wikipedia def of panspermia--the paragraph following noted that there was a lot of slipperiness or fuzziness in terms of the use of the term "panspermia." Certainly you are trying to restrict the definition narrowly. Your choice. As it is mine, to broaden it--as others have.

I suppose you could call the ET explanation a variant of Intelligent Design--certainly.

It is a variant of intelligent design. Proponents of intelligent design have conceded that the "designer" could in fact be an extraterrestrial agent.

Quite so. AND, it CAN also be construed as a variant of panspermia with ET's as the agents spreading life broadly through the universe.

But, that wouldn't fit the political agenda of so many evolutionists so rabidly hostile to Christianity etc.

Please explain.

I'm exceedingly skeptical that you NEED any explanation about that. IF you really seriously are interested in presentations of those FACTS, then the web has plenty of them that you can easily search out. I have no current need to go around and round with you about that.

I have plenty of (for me and many I know) evidence regarding such. But none I want to bother sharing here.

Then, again, why should what you say be believed?

I don't recall my calling you personally to believe anything. Of course, you are welcome to. I'd be blessed if you did. But I have no expectation that a long list of folks will believe a single word I write. I'm not, per se, writing to such folks sitting on the edge of my seat desperate for their agreement. I'm not THAT delusional.

However, there are folks of certain sets of mind and personality--who will search out truth regardless of where it leads them. Perhaps some of them will find some merit or at least have some curiosity triggered by what I write. That will be wonderful. Most of that will go on with lurkers whom I will never know about this side of eternity.

Those who prefer to vigorously . . . perhaps rigidly, narrowly, brittle-ly prefer to cling to their own limited constructions on reality are welcome to their world views. I have no need to try and teach every critter to sing. I can't really, even sing myself. But, I share for those for whom my words may be of some value. I sleep quite well whether they agree or disagree; believe or disbelieve.

Sufficient feedback has arrived over the years by FREEPMAIL and email and otherwise for me to be comforted that it's worth the bother. If it's not worth your bother--you are welcome to skip every post I write.

But you could track it down at Dr Stephen Greer's DISCLOSURE PROJECT and a plethora of other sites. But it would be a bit of a tedious task. It's not set out per se as about that topic. The evidence is mixed in amidst a bunch of other stuff of varying quality and import, depending on the sources and sites etc.

I was not aware that the Disclosure Project included in its agenda an attempt to replace the theory of evolution with a theory stating that extraterrestrials were involved with the development of life on earth. Do you have a reference? Moreover, I was also not aware that the Disclosure Project had been making any significant headway amongst biologists.

Of course not. I'm not sure which part of the following was unclear:

But it would be a bit of a tedious task. It's not set out per se as about that topic.

The evidence at the DISCLOSURE PROJECT site is incidental to other presentations, evidence, discussions, reports, personal experiences etc. I suspect you have learned some things incidentally while studying other things. It's a fairly common human experience.

Perhaps my: I have plenty of (for me and many I know) evidence regarding such. But none I want to bother sharing here. But you could track it down . . . was unclear.

1. Ferretting out the incidental evidence amongst piles of evidence with a different focus is not my need.
2. I don't plan to provide you with any reference. You are well able to research such things yourself.
3. YOU are most WELCOME to disbelieve every word I write, if it so suits you. 4. Those who are well read in the field are aware of the evidence I'm speaking of regarding the claims of variouis races of ET's.
5. Those who are lurking or otherwise constructively curious are also well able to read through the tons of evidence available at such sites as:

DISCLOSURE PROJECT HERE: http://www.disclosureproject.org/

ABOVE TOP SECRET FORUM HERE: http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/

There's tons of such sites with info regarding the ET's claims about seeding earth with life; bio-engineering humans etc. But such info is LARGELY incidental to other issues and presentations in the field. Occasionally one may find a thread devoted to that topic. IF you are truly interested in such, you can search it out. I have no need to do that for you.

In terms of biologists and the topics at the DISCLOSURE SITE . . . biologists are represented more or less proportionally amongst the piles of documents in the field. That info, too, is even more incidentally available.

I would not expect biologists to--as a group--jump on the ET bandwagon unless and until the whole field is outted and more or less wholesale verified public knowledge. However, there are reports from some biologists who've had experiences and even some who've been involved in highly secret work related to the field. I have no need to track those references down either. Believe what you want.

Some folks are now claiming that the puppet masters will likely NEVER disclose, admit, declassify the whole vast area regarding ET's, UFO's etc. I think differently. I believe such phenomena will be involved in setting the world up for a global government--and--probably--even involved in enforcing such things in a very tyrannical, hyper controlling way.

The SLAG implant is one example of that. SLAve taG computer ID chip implant which will be required of all world citizens seems to have origins in the ET phenomena.

Those who believe that such will never be allowed in the public domain believe so because of all the botched super serious errors on the part of the human handlers in government and the realm of the puppet masters. Such folks are afraid of being lynched if their errors in managing the ET problem are revealed.

Others insist that ET's are not ready for it to be public and are preventing it. Others disagree and insist that at some point the ET's themselves will make things abundantly clear in a very overt and public way.

I'm just convinced that it all will factor into the rush to a global government. And, that at some point, ET's and UFOS will be 'routine' daily aspects of public reality very overtly.

Time will tell. Until then. Laugh at your leisure. Shake your head in dismay. Cluck your tongue. Guffaw in derision. It doesn't really matter that much. The die is cast. The script is mostly written. The play in many acts will unfold.

Cheers.

[Right Wing Professor]

Wow. Weirdness in blue. Dazzling.

[CarolinaGuitarman]

"Oh come now. Why are evolutionists on a crusade if there is no fundamental belief in some sort of moral obligation?"

They aren't on a crusade.

"Why the romantic view of people like Galileo as "martyrs" if what they discovered was of no import whatsoever?"

He's used by both sides actually, though it's laughable when an anti-evo tries to paint themselves as a victim of repression. What is important is that rational thought is not abandoned for mysticism, like ID/creationism.

"The people who insist the loudest that life has no meaning are the very ones who act the most as if this were not the case."

Again you make things up. Evolution does not say that life has no meaning, nor do supporters of evolution say that.

"Atheists loudly condemn past generations for believing the earth was the center of the universe, but they are the ones who created and sponsor Earth Day and encourage nature worship and even a worldwide totalitarian state to ensure the viability of life on this supposedly totally unimportant planet."

No, that's socialists. BTW, evolution isn't atheistic anyway, so who cares what atheists say or don't say?

"Stop playing games."

Stop making things up. :)

"Neither you nor I are chr*stians, and many chr*stian Theistic evolutionists are "ID"ers ("ID" merely being Theistic evolution that insists that G-d occasionally slips from the realm of speculation into the world of hard facts)."

Actually, ID says that God (the designer) never enters the world of hard facts; if he did, it would be possible to find some trace of Him, some evidence. Instead, ID'ers say that an unknowable designer did unknowable things at an unknowable time in an untestable way. It's a sham.

Theistic evolutionists do not pretend that their theology is science.

My point stands; most people who accept that evolution is correct (common descent, descent with modification) are also Christians.

"At least people like me are consistent."

Consistently wrong.

"But somehow this curious attitude seems illustrative of the entire evolutionist position: the purpose of life is to acknowledge the purposelessness of life."

That's a lie.

"Make lots of money, now."

That's what the ID'ers/creationist proponents are doing; making money off of fools.

[LibertarianSchmoe]

Zionist Conspirator: There's no atheist nastier than a self-hating redneck.

"The South Is Under Attack" ping for puroresu, courtesy of Darwin Central^TM, "The Conspiracy that cares", and a native Texan.

[CarolinaGuitarman]

"My bad. I just saw that softball hanging there, shut my eyes and SWUNG!"

You were right; I just added some more info. :)

[CarolinaGuitarman]

Zionist actually says HE'S the redneck, and that I should have known this already.

His calling me a self-hating southerner is, let's just say, amusing. :)

[js1138]

You have to understand that Catholics and most Protestants are actually atheists.

Looking at the official guidebook to acceptable belief, only a tiny fraction of Christian denominations, plus 1.2 billion Muslims actually qualify as believers.

[PatrickHenry]

I'm one of the few people around here who doesn't claim certain knowledge of the One True Way^tm to read scripture, thus I don't debate when such experts offer their worthy opinions.

[<1/1,000,000th%]

Neither you nor I are chr*stians, and many chr*stian Theistic evolutionists are "ID"ers ("ID" merely being Theistic evolution that insists that G-d occasionally slips from the realm of speculation into the world of hard facts).

I'm not sure what your aversion to the word, Christian, is about, but the fact is that most of the 20 million or so scientists in this country are Christians.

[js1138]

There are many mansions, saith the prophet, and I'm sure there are short buses in heaven for those who require them.

[Coyoteman]

I'm sure there are short buses in heaven

Do they run on time?

[js1138]

Time is an illusion. Lunchtime doubly so.

[Quix]

So glad you 'enjoyed' it.

--'DOC BLUE'--the Bright Blue Professor

[puroresu]

Thanks for the ping! :-)

I don't bother to debate every opinion about the South, but I do try to correct factual errors.

How are you today, BTW? I'm enjoying a day of (mostly) lurking!

[puroresu]

And I should have added, it's also rather stupid to constantly bash the most Republican and conservative region of the country, particularly since without that region John Kerry would be president and Leftist Democrats would control both houses of Congress, and Roberts & Alito thus wouldn't be on the Supreme Court. Stupid, that is, if those doing the bashing are conservative as claimed.

Where would we, as conservatives, be without the hated Southern Strategy? The GOP is limp-wristed enough as it is. Imagine if the religious right and/or Southerners were ousted from the party, as some here seem to desire.

[LibertarianSchmoe]

They (IDers) are also consistent in being ironic, what with all the references to Galileo, demands for open-mindedness, and delusions of persecution.

Rednex 2.0, now with Self-Loathing^TM A.I.!