Posted on 04/27/2006 6:26:15 PM PDT by spanalot
Interesting link. Thanks for the post.
The Japanese were starving on Saipan and Tinian and Okinawa prior to our arrival. They still fought to the last man, even committing suicide to avoid capture.
Let there be no doubt, indubitably a mainland Japan assault would have taken a million US casualties. Additionally, once warfare spread by small units into the mainland, family resentments against anything American would have lingered with force for generations,..far more considerably than anything perceived today. Those estimates were not historical revisionism, they were logistical estimates based upon professional planning rigor developed over the 3 year island campaign, rehearsed and finetuned with uncompromising dedication in a life and death struggle of total war. Those making the assessments were PhDs in uniform with degrees and professions in history, accounting and logistical professions. The best men of the nation were in place making those assessments with a strong historical experience in validating and preparing rigorous plans.
Recall, that Japanese soldiers were still being found on islands in the Pacific 40 years after the war had ended who still considered themselves at war.
BTW, civilians have always suffered the largest percentage of fatalities and casuaties from warfare. That is why refugees leave their homes. It is also why on an island nation such as Japan, the one million casualty estimate had also been appraised as possibly being considerably lower than past datum might have concluded. The Japanese on Okinawa didn't surrender, nor did they anticipate reinforcments.
"I don't know of any military logistician who believed the USSR had the logistical power to wage war independent of the Allies during WWII. Additionally, the US did continue to fight, explicitly in the Pacific theater for another 2 years after Germany collapsed and was torn asunder."
In the period between the invasion of the Soviet Union and the end of the war, Stalin had managed to move the great majority of Russian war production over 1,000 miles east over the Ural Mountains, beyond the range of German airpower,and subsequently beyond the reach of the German Army.
Those factories were eventually turning out tanks, aircraft, artillery and small arms on a scale comparable to American factories, and in the case of Soviet tanks, with superior quality and quantiy than American factories. Prior to this, the major American contributions to the Russian war effort were (according the Zhukov himself, no less) the Studebaker 2 1/2-ton truck, 100 octane aviation fuel and waterproof telephone wire.
The Russians did take large numbers of American aircraft (most notably the P-39/400 and the P-40, which no one else relly wanted) early in the war because they were, for the most part, the only aircraft available. With the Russian aircraft industry in disarray after the invasion of the Soviet Union. When Russian industry later got back on it's feet, it produced some of the most fantastic and powerful aircraft of the war, including the Strurmovik (The Flying Tank) and the later-generation YAK and MiG fighters, that were of comparable performance to Allied and German aircraft.
They then somehow managed to ship these thousands of weapons, these thousands of tanks and aircraft to the multiple fronts (the Russian war was one of multiple fronts against the Germans, not one static easily-delineated line), and not only push them out of the Soviet Union, but back into Germany. And with the means to supply troops with everything from boots to bullets, no less.
You cannot do this without the "logistical power to wage war independant of the Allies". The distances involved by themselves bear this out. Once Stalin had a breathing space and his factories re-assembled in safer places, the Russian armaments industry went at it full bore.
I'd also like to point out that not only did the Russians defeat Germany, but with two months were able to supply, equip and transport an army of comparable size to overrun Korea and Manchuria, taking them from Japan. That's shifting equipment and men over 3,000 miles from Europe to Asia to fight. I think that speaks well of the Russian logistical system.
P.S. Russia took a great deal of German industrial plant, equipment and machinery,and (post-War) natural resource production as war reparations.
"The new strategic and possibly operational weapons were nuclear and the US was leading all others in that category."
Nuclear arms were not ready to be mass produced, or at least in numbers large enough to have any noticable effect in a confrontation with Russia c. 1945, to say, 1948/49. I'd have to look this up to be sure , but I believe the number of bombs we were capable of producing at that time was along the lines of perhaps 12 per year, possibly 18 at most.
There was no other delivery system for the weapons except the manned bomber, and in the face of enourmous numbers of good, effective Russian fighters and copious A/A defenses, this was tantamount to a suicide mission. The United States lost 60,000 men in the great bomber campaigns against Germany, alone, for very little obvious return.
"In regards to 'mass-muder' of civilian populations, I'm a bit confused. How exactly were munition factories and armament product considered peaceful enterprises, void of any military value in Hiroshima and Nagasaki?"
Both cities had been singled out for destruction by the atomic bomb when it became ready, and as such, had never been bombed before. If I recall, the only major military target in either city was the 2nd Army HQ in Nagasaki,m and this was mostly an administrative post with few actual combat troops.
As for munitions plants, industrial base, etc, the concept of "strategic bombing" had been around since the 1920's, and got it's first practical application in the Second World War. It fell far short of the promise it held (or rather the promises made by it's proponents), as articulated by people like Billy Mitchell and H.G. Wells. The fact of the matter was that the technology of the day could not provide the precision necessary to make the concept work. The very inprecision of the weapon itself guarenteed loss of innocentlife.
It took the Germans exactly 60 days during the Battle of Britain to realize this and had not one of their pilots made the mistake of bombing London instead of the nearby airfields, the switch to the bombing of civilian areas was all but a foregone conclusion, waiting only for the order from Goering. It took the RAF about 30 days to question the concept and then discard it altogether, especially for night-time raids. No one in WWII practiced "strategic bombing" both sides practiced terror bombing of civilian populations, justifying it with quaint notions like "every apartment block destroyed displaces 4 German workers with a resulting loss of productivity" (that's a direct quote from "Bomber" Harris, btw).
For the investment made in strategic bombing, the return was simply not worth the cost. Post-War bombing surveys concluded that had the Allies gone after the RIGHT targets (Germany's electrical generation and distribution network) they could have achieved the same effect with a fraction of the casualties and loss of aircraft.
Japanese industry by the middle of 1945 was finsihed. It no longer had the fuel or materials to continue producing anything, especially in a country that was starving. While Japanese industry was quite resourceful in making use of whatever stockpiles and domestic supplies they could lay hands to, it would never be enough to break the American naval and air blockade surrounding Japan.
Surrender was a foregone conclusion, in my opinion, given enough time. The bomb certainly made the decision as to when the war would end, it did not make a difference as to how. I say that because even if you believe the nonsense about "Unconditional Surrender" you'll note that Japan was able to negotiate quite a few conditions, unofficially.
"You appear to have studied some history"
I hold a MA in Western Civ and am currently completing my doctorate (I've been competing it for two years now! LOL. If I didn't have to work for a living I'd have it already!)
The HIstory of Warfare is one of my special interests, specially the Second World War. I'm fascinated by it. I also served in the United States Navy, and three generations of Wombat's were US Marines before that (one fought at Chateau Theirry, another went ashore at Tulagi and Peleliu and one fought at Khe Sahn). I know my wars.
"This rapid cessation of hostility was in no small part due to an overwhelming display of power in a surgical fashion, but with indubitable consequence."
The rapid cessation of hostility was due to both sides being almost totally exhausted by war. Interesting fact: 3/4 of the Japanese army remained unengaged by any allied force of consequence, mostly outside of Japan proper. Two million-plus men in China alone. In terms of manpower, Japan had the wherewithal to continue to fight, but did not have the means to resupply, transport or feed those troops. By 1945 the Allies (with the exception of the Russians) are scraping the bottom of the barrel for manpower.
"The same may have also occurred in the USSR, had the peoples of the USSR been allowed to regain the freedom of a democratic republic, rather than being forced into totalitarianism, then socialism for another fifty years."
You assume that the people of the Soviet Union then (as now) actually KNEW what freedom was, previously had it, or would know what to do with it when given it, let alone want it. You disregard Russian culture, which for 1,000 years was nothing but a cycle of serfdom and totalitarian rulers. Freedom (and the associated concepts of equality under law, private property and the "unwritten" societal laws attendent to a democratic society) is not a concept the Russian culture embraces or understands easily (just look at what's happened since 1991), because it never existed in any meaningful sense. Ever.
Democracy in Eastern Europe was also in it's infancy. Most of the pre-war "democratic nations" of Eastern Europe having not existed prior to 1918, with the exception of Poland (which alternated between existence and non-existance for a few hundred years). Almost all are the result of the breaking up of the great European empires (Austria-Hungary, Germany/Prussia, the Ottoman Empire)at the end of WWI, all of which (the Empires) were anything but democratic. Like Russia, there is very little democratic tradition in Eastern Europe or the Balkan States (except for Greece, of course!).
"More important than the type of government, though, would have been the allowance of the Gospel to have been spread to many generations of believers in that region of the world by legitimate authority."
The region we're talking about is, of course, the old stomping grounds of the Greek Orthodox church, creation of the Byzantine (late Roman) Empire. The place where Constantine teh Great (who put Christianity on the map) built his new Capital (Constantinople) and which for centuries made the Church of Rome seem like Florida Marlins to it's New York Yankees. The Byzantines and the Greek Orthodox church are responsible for Christianity taking root and surviving in Eastern Europe, Asia Minor, the Balkans and Russia; and that's in the face of invasions from everyone from Ghengis Khan, to the Ottomans to Napoleon to the Germans. That's over 1,500 years of Christian tradition, the glue of modern Eastern European culture, in many ways.
Even when Communism outlawed the church, the Soviet State did not cross the line and outright disband the church, even when declaring it outlaw. I don't believe there was a lack of Christian faith evident at all. Even Stalin allowed open prayer and worship in Russia's darkest days.
Again, I don't know anybody who was there who sincerely believed the USSR was the equivalent of the US logistically at the end of WWII. I don't think the people of the USSR just decided to remain paupers for 40 years after the war so as not to attract attention. Nor do I believe Stalin had all the wealth of a US equivalent and simply withheld it from the Soviet people.
Fine. I don't know anybody who said they were or could be, either, for that matter. I only look at the facts and draw what seems to be a reasonable conclusion.
The "remaining paupers" bit has nothing to do with "attracting attention"; it is a cultural phenomenon, so ingrained by habit and custom as to be impervious, at least initially, to foreign concepts. If I can give you a more contemporary example, I can point to Islam.
The question is not whether people wish to be "rich" or "free" it's that the Western notions, and the vehicles by which they are delivered, often bump up against deeply-ingrained cultural taboos. I'm sure everyone in Iran would like a 52" Plasma TV, but how does the government and religious authority react to the television's ability to transmit information, images and possibly open debate and dissent which would (might) spell the end of the Islam and traditional "strong man" rule? How would the people, who hold many of the same views as the mullahs and the despots, react to the same?
The answer is: they react in the same way (mostly), either out of fear of retribution, guilt, or fear of losing their world, as they know it. This is a far more fearsome concept, the loss of tradition and the familiar, that far outweighs the potentially-good-but-untested (at least by them) benefits offered by secular, democratic government and Western concepts of freedom.
You only have to watch Iraqi suicide bombers blowing up supermarkets because they convey the message of Satan (i.e. secular-democratic states produce everything a huamn being could ever want, and you don't have to pray five times a day for it, or pledge your life to Jihad), to see this dynamic in action. These are not rational people making informed decisions, arrived at by the careful weighing of pro's and con's vis-a-vis despotism and democracy. It is a reflexive emotional reaction based upon superstition and bordering-on-genetic cultural norms.
Western culture (and thus democracy and secular government)works because it can chuck faith, it can chuck superstition, it can experiment free of the examination of church or despot, and do so in the open without fear of retribution, especially from prevailing cultural and political power. Concepts and ideas, scientific, social, economic, political, can be brought into the public sphere, analyzed, experiemnted with, tweaked, audited. That which works is generally accepte dby the consensus and becomes the norm, that which isn't is thrown to the dust heap of history. This simply is not so in a place like pre-end-of-the-Cold-War Russia, pre-War Japan, or modern Iran.
I recommend you read "Carnage and Culture" by Victor Davis Hanson, and "The Discoverers", by Daniel Boorstein, both of whom cover this exact phenomenon from soup to nuts better than just about anyone ever has, especially me.
"While I'm not sure he was murdered, if he was, it would have been more likely that his assassination was ordered by Truman or Eisenhower"
Did they also plan the assassination of John Wayne - I think your letting Stalin off way too easy.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/3114963.stm
Stalin had his tit in the wringer with 50000 allie hostages and he knew that Patton would demand justice and a rescue.
This would have crushed Russia - he had a lot more to lose than some US politician.
you can stop trying to outdo each other.
Your absurd claims about the Ukrainian Freedom Fighter Bandera is so much Kremlin propaganda. He along with his family spent most of the war in Nazi concentration camps.
http://72.14.203.104/search?q=cache:QAQwLWnX7osJ:www.rferl.org/featuresarticle/2005/05/b37ae4db-b5bf-43f6-a3e6-147caa57bd20.html+bandera+nazi+concentration+camp&hl=en&gl=us&ct=clnk&cd=9&ie=UTF-8
And regarding the Genocide committed by the Russian against the Ukrainians, one look at the map will show you that the Genocide was limited to Ukraine and areas of Russia populated by Ukrainians and other anti Kremlin nationalities.
http://www.faminegenocide.com/resources/famine_map.html
Another lie about the "great losses" suffered by the "Russians " during WWII.
It was all Poles and Ukrainians that bore the brunt of WWII.
But don't let the facts get in the way.
http://www.infoukes.com/history/ww2/page-29.html
"It is a reflexive emotional reaction based upon superstition and bordering-on-genetic cultural norms. "
No it isn't - it is the result of decades of Anti western propagandizing by leftist and communist elements in the middle east.
He's also curiously silent about all the Ukranians who served in the Wermacht, SS, and as Concentration Camp guards, etc. Thousands of them. Of course, this will be explained away probably along the lines of "they were forced to" or somesuch nonsense. Those people have just as much blood on their hands as Hitler does, perhaps even more since they actually did the killing.
I've got news for you: Ukraine existed only as a geographic region when it became, or was absorbed into, THE SOVIET UNION. After that, there were no Russians, Ukranians, Tatars, etc, only SOVIET CITIZENS. While it's true that many proudly considered themselves Ukranian first, Soviet Second, the opposite is also true. I'm pretty sure just as many Ukranians gladly took up arms to defend the "Rodina" as were opposed to Stalin, probably even more.
Just as there were committed Ukranian Communists, there were also committed Ukranian fascists. It was a common disease across Europe at the time; a true admiration for Hitler and Mussolini that had it's adherants in every nation on the continent. I doubt all Ukranians were immune to the lure of Hitler, and how many actually greeted the German army as liberators?
"Another lie about the "great losses" suffered by the "Russians " during WWII.
It was all Poles and Ukrainians that bore the brunt of WWII.
But don't let the facts get in the way.
http://www.infoukes.com/history/ww2/page-29.html"
A Ukrainian source for your information how "unbiased"! My source is the US National and Archives Administration - I'll stand by AMERICAN sources over your preferred Ukrainian sources - once again proving you are either not really a naturalized citizen, or are a traitor to your adopted country because you put Ukraine above all. Go back home and help them rebuild.
"No it isn't - it is the result of decades of Anti western propagandizing by leftist and communist elements in the middle east"
Listen, Bub; Islam predates the Politburo by quite a few centuries. Desrt nomad culture predates Pravda, Izvestia and the KGB by a few millenia.
The issue is not that Islam is anti-Western. That concept does not register in any real sense, and is a catch-all phrase. The issue is that Islam and the traditional, tribal-nomadic customs within which it grew, are theologically and culturally inimical TO THAT WHICH MAKES WESTSERN CULTURE POSSIBLE! Most specifically the questioning and challenging of authority.
Without this first, and most important premise (challenge of authority), there is no "Western" anything.
Without a few other, but also important "Western" conventions (freedom for women, abolotion of slavery, ability to accept influences from outside our own culture, equality under the law, the concept of private property, separation of church and state, scientific experimentation divorced from religious stigma and dogma, just to begin with) there is no such thing as western culture.
You cannot, therefore, blame "anti-Westernism" in the Middle East on "Communist propaganda"; the real culprit is that the soil in which something akin to "pro-Westernism" would germinate in will not take the seed. All the propaganda did was to reinforce widely-held, centuries-old social, ethnic and political beliefs.
"Your absurd claims about the Ukrainian Freedom Fighter Bandera is so much Kremlin propaganda. He along with his family spent most of the war in Nazi concentration camps. "
Thanks for proving my point about you - you have followed the disinformation script that UON swear by. Bandera and his men are responsible for the deaths of thousands of Jews but yet you defend him.
BTW, My information was, as stated, based on archival files at the US DEPT OF JUSTICE. So, once again, you decide that Ukrainian sources are more accurate and better than the US Sources - which you claim are lies.
How can you call yourself an American? Traitor. KUN and Tryzuby must be paying you well. I wonder what the USCIS thinks about those organizations?
You also deny the deaths of millions of Non-Ukrainians at the hands of Soviets and REFUSE to condemn UKRAINIAN complicity in the Soviet crimes.
PPC rears its ugly head again. Nothing worse than a disloyal immigrant.
These are the only casualties I care about:
Military Civilian Total
407,300 11,200 418,500
If you were a loyal American instead of a Ukrainian nationalist these would be the figures you cared more about.
Spanalot---I recommend that you begin the process of rational thinking.
The Soviet ParaState could not have existed for as long as it did without the cooperation of Ukrainian Socialists/Communists. Your nationalist myth also glosses over the fact that 'genocidal' policies were executed by the local Ukrainian cadres, who were primarily Ukrainian communist party activists, on Moscow's command.
Maybe he meant these Ukrainian "war" heros:
1. John Demjanjuk (b. 1920 in Dubovye Makharintsy, Kiev Oblast, USSR), birth name Iwan Demjanjuk, is a retired auto worker who emigrated to the United States from Europe in 1951. He was later accused of, tried for, convicted, sentenced to death and then exonerated by Israel's highest court of crimes against humanity, based on his being identified by Holocaust survivors in Israel as having been "Ivan the Terrible," a notorious SS guard at the Treblinka extermination camp during the period 1942-1943 who allegedly committed acts of extraordinarily savage violence against camp prisoners.
2. (Marshal) Ivan Nikitovich Kozhedub was a Soviet hero military aviator of Ukrainian descent. He was made a Hero of the Soviet Union on three occasions (February 4, 1944; August 19, 1944; August 18, 1945).
That's right - the SAME Kozhedub who COMMANDED Soviet MiG-15 fighter pilots who SHOT DOWN AMERICAN PILOTS IN THE KOREAN WAR. Do the math - Ukrainian General (frankly, I prefer calling him a Soviet, but I'll play the spanalot ethnic game for a couple of minutes) responsible for the DEATHS of American pilots.
3. Andrej Melnik: Melnyk founded the Organization of Ukrainian Nationalists (OUN) in 1922. Between 1924 and 1928 Melnyk was imprisoned for alleged terrorist activities by the Polish government. In the 1930s Melnyk re-organized OUN as an undeground organization, adopted ideology of Benito Mussolini's fascism and created an armed wing responsible for a number of terrorist acts.
And strangely, just like Bandera settled in Germany after the war... Oh, almost forgot, he too was imprisoned by the Nazis so I guess that makes him a hero.
4. The Ukrianians at Babi Yar: Babi Yar is a ravine at the outskirts of Kiev. On September 29 - 30, 1941, more than 30,000 Jews were killed by machine gun at the hands of an SS mobile killing unit and Ukrainian volunteers. The ravine continued to be used for the execution of civilians and of Russian prisoners of war. At the end of the German occupation, Babi Yar had become a mass grave for over 100,000 people.
5. Volodymyr Kubiyovych was a Ukrainian politician, statesman and historian. He was one of the leaders of Ukrainian nationalist movement in Galicia before and during World War II. As such, Kubiyovych has been the main proponent of the cooperation between Ukrainian organizations and Nazi Germany aimed to the establishing of an independent Ukrainian state. After the war, he became one of the leading politicians and scholars of Ukrainian diaspora in the West.
And of course, it's no surprise that there is such a strong nationalistic movement in the Ukrainian diaspora - some might say it makes them disloyal to their adopted country.
6.Ukrianians in the Vietnam War fought against the US (source: Vietnam Veterans of America):
"KOVVW is the only Vietnam veterans organization in the former Soviet Union, Serdyuk explained. The organization came about because Kharkiv is home to a military air defense engineering academy (now called the Kharkiv University of Air Forces), large military air defense forces, military and civilian facilities, and universities. All, Serdyuk noted, had served in Vietnam some time during 1965-75, and had advised or assisted the Vietnamese with air defense matters. Many settled in the area and are still involved in the university. Today, most of the members are over 70 years of age."
"Serdyuk invited his fellow veterans to share their memories: “Amongst our ranks we have generals, officers, and enlisted men. We gave aid to the Socialist Republic of Vietnam in their struggle for independence. Just as you have established relationships with the Vietnamese, we have established and maintain a relationship with the Vietnamese Embassy in Kiev. The Vietnamese have expressed their appreciation for what we have done for them. I would like to appeal to you for joint memoirs.”
Retired Gen. Vladimir Mikhailovich Zakoryukin was the first to offer his recollections: “I am very glad we are meeting today,” he said. “I only saw Americans from the bottom up, from the ground looking up.
“The Soviet specialists were also great patriots. The civilian population [of Vietnam] didn’t have anything to protect them. As friends of that country—we were professors and teachers—we helped them use our technology, and they used it against you. “War is war,” Zakoryukin said. “As veterans, we all acknowledge that we did our duty. It is very pleasant to be with one another. People of our age live basically in our memories—the memories of all the good things we have done.”
Professor Nikolay Shershnev is a veteran of the Vietnam War and professor at the University of Air Forces, Ukraine Ministry of Defense. In July 2005, Shershnev was asked by the commander of the university to review libraries and faculty holdings for information regarding American losses in Vietnam. Currently he teaches students from Myanmar in the use of the old Soviet anti-aircraft missile system. Shershnev was accompanied by his teaching assistant, who is fluent in English. "
"Shershnev yielded the floor to Yuri S. Salumatin:
“Next year it will be forty years since we returned,” he said. “I only saw the Americans on the radar screen. But one time we did see a POW. On August 1, 1966, we had shot down many Americans. He was a lieutenant colonel. He was trying to get back to the airport in Thailand. This was about midnight. His captors were carrying burning torches. My friend and I were out walking. What is that? That is a pilot. Let’s go look at him. He had short hair. We were two meters from him. He was wearing only his underwear. He was tied in ropes, and there were bindings on his shoulders. There was a stopped car. It was not a pretty picture."
Oh, wait, these guys are Ukrainians, they surely couldn't be responsible for the deaths of American airmen in N. Vietnam?!?!
Like I said before - I'd prefer to call them SOVIET and the Soviets were our enemy and we defeated them. Unfortunately, a misguided member of the nationalistic Ukrainian diaspora prefers to play the ethnicity game and deny or deflect any evidence showing their complicity in WWII deaths, Korean War deaths, and Vietnam War deaths.
Instead of calling AMERICAN veterans "traitors" he should be apologizing to them for the invovlement of his countrymen (Ukrainians) in the wars they fought against us.
If WW 2 was an online game, pretty funny
Offensive (to some) language contained herein:
*Hitler[AoE] has joined the game.*
*Eisenhower has joined the game.*
*paTTon has joined the game.*
*MacRthr has joined the game. *
*Churchill has joined the game.*
*benny-tow has joined the game.*
*T0J0 has joined the game.*
*Roosevelt has joined the game.*
*Stalin has joined the game.*
*deGaulle has joined the game.*
Roosevelt: hey sup
T0J0: y0
Stalin: hi
Churchill: hi
Hitler[AoE]: cool, i start with panzer tanks!
paTTon: lol more like panzy tanks
T0JO: lol
Roosevelt: o this f**** s**** i got a depression!
benny-tow: haha america sux
Stalin: hey hitler you dont fight me i dont fight u, cool?
Hitler[AoE]; sure whatever
Stalin: cool
deGaulle: shit Hitler rushed some1 help
Hitler[AoE]: lol byebye frenchy
Roosevelt: i dont got s*** to help, sry
Churchill: wtf the luftwaffle is attacking me
Roosevelt: get antiair guns
Churchill: i cant afford them
benny-tow: u n00bs know what team talk is?
paTTon: stfu
Roosevelt: o yah hit the navajo button guys
deGaulle: eisenhower ur worthless come help me quick
Eisenhower: i cant do shit til rosevelt gives me an army
paTTon: yah hurry the f*** up
Churchill: d00d im gettin pounded
deGaulle: this is f***in weak u guys suck
*deGaulle has left the game.*
Roosevelt: im gonna attack the axis k?
benny-tow: with what? ur wheelchair?
benny-tow: lol did u mess up ur legs AND ur head?
Hitler[AoE]: ROFLMAO
T0J0: lol o no america im comin 4 u
Roosevelt: wtf! thats bs u fags im gunna kick ur a$$es
T0JO: not without ur harbors u wont! lol
Roosevelt: u little b**** ill get u
T0J0: mac i'm totally kicking ur a$$
MacRthr: BRB AFK
Hitler[AoE]: wtf
Hitler[AoE]: america hax, u had depression and now u got a huge f***in
army
Hitler[AoE]: thats bs u hacker
Churchill: lol no more france for u hitler
Hitler[AoE]: tojo help me!
T0J0: wtf u want me to do, im on the other side of the world retard
Hitler[AoE]: fine ill clear you a path
Stalin: WTF u asshoel! WE HAD A F***IN TRUCE
Hitler[AoE]: i changed my mind lol
benny-tow: haha
benny-tow: hey ur losing ur guys in africa im gonna need help in italy
soon sum1
T0J0: o shit i cant help u i got my hands full
Hitler[AoE]: im 2 busy 2 help
Roosevelt: yah thats right b*** im comin for ya
Stalin: church help me
Churchill: like u helped me before? sure ill just sit here
Stalin: dont be an a$$
Churchill: dont be a commie. oops too late
Eisenhower: LOL
benny-tow: hahahh oh s*** help
Hitler: o man ur f***ed
paTTon: oh what now b***h
Roosevelt: whos the cripple now lol
*benny-tow has been eliminated.*
benny-tow: lame
Roosevelt: gj patton
paTTon: thnx
Hitler[AoE]: WTF eisenhower hax hes killing all my s***
Hitler[AoE]: quit u hacker so u dont ruin my record
Eisenhower: Nuts!
benny~tow: wtf that mean?
Eisenhower: meant to say n**sack lol finger slipped
paTTon: coming to get u hitler u paper hanging hun cocksucker
Stalin: rofl
T0J0: HAHAHHAA
Hitler[AoE]: u guys are f***in gay
Hitler[AoE]: ur never getting in my city
*Hitler[AoE] has been eliminated.*
benny~tow: OMG u noob you killed yourself
Eisenhower: ROFLOLOLOL
Stalin: OMG LMAO!
Hitler[AoE]: WTF i didnt click there omg this game blows
*Hitler[AoE] has left the game*
paTTon: hahahhah
T0J0: WTF my teammates are n00bs
benny~tow: shut up noob
Roosevelt: haha wut a moron
paTTon: wtf am i gunna do now?
Eisenhower: yah me too
T0J0: why dont u attack me o thats right u dont got no ships lololol
Eisenhower: f*** u
paTTon: lemme go thru ur base commie
Stalin: go to hell lol
paTTon: f*** this s*** im goin afk
Eisenhower: yah this is gay
MacRthr: k back!
*Roosevelt has left the game.*
Hitler[AoE]: wtf?
Eisenhower: shit now we need some1 to join
*tru_m4n has joined the game.*
tru_m4n: hi all
T0J0: hey
Stalin: sup
Churchill: hi
tru_m4n: OMG OMG OMG i got all his stuff!
tru_m4n: NUKES! HOLY SHIT I GOT NUKES
Stalin: d00d gimmie some plz
tru_m4n: no way i only got like a couple
Stalin: omg dont be gay gimmie nuculer secrets
T0J0: wtf is nukes?
T0J0: holy &%$&(##$@&*%(!
*T0J0 has been eliminated.*
*The Allied team has won the game!*
Eisenhower: awesome!
Churchill: gg noobs no re
T0J0: thats bS u f***in s***
*T0J0 has left the game.*
*Eisenhower has left the game.*
Stalin: next game im not going to be on ur team, u guys didnt help me for
s**
Churchill: wutever, we didnt need ur help neway dumbass
tru_m4n: l8r all
benny~tow: bye
Churchill: l8r
Stalin: f*** u all
MacRthr: f*** u commie!!!
MacRthr: ur next b****!
tru_m4n: shut up commie lol
*tru_m4n has left the game.*
benny~tow: lololol u commie
Churchill: ROFL
Churchill: bye commie
*Churchill has left the game.*
*benny~tow has left the game.*
*MacRthr has left the game.*
Stalin: i hate u all fags
*Stalin has left the game.*
paTTon: lol no1 is left
paTTon: weeeee i got a limousine
*paTTon has been eliminated.*
paTTon: o s***!
*paTTon has left the game.*
An oldie, but a goodie. My favorite:
"deGaulle: this is f***in weak u guys suck
*deGaulle has left the game.* "
But the version I saw had this after we destroyed Hitler:
*deGaulle has rejoined the game.*
deGaulle: we waxed those c***s***kers!
Eisenhower: Wha??
Churchill: Excuse me?
PaTTon: STFU Frenchie.
I wont pretend to know the names and aprticulars attached to certain individuals and their acivities. Reality is that I don't need to. It is a historical fact, backed up by eyewitness testimony, investigate documents, personal accounts, official records (form both sides), etc, that there were Ukranians who fought for the Germans.
There were also French, British, Norweigians, Finns, Hungarians, Poles, Greeks, Spaniards, Dutch, Estonians, Danes, Belgians, South Africans, Arabs, Yugoslavians, Turks, Americans, and even Sub-Continent Indians, who fought for the Germans as well. The Germans had a habit of collecting pro-Nazi Allied nationals or Allied-allied nationals into units known as "Freikorps" (Free Corps), and attaching them to the SS.
That he pretends otherwise does not change the fact.
It is a common thing in the former Soviet Union amongst the older generation to claim that while they exhibited all the patriotic fervor and love of Stalin that was required during the "Great Patriotic War", they really didn't mean it, and only NOW whent he Soviet State has been dismembered, can they finally come out and say so. The once-fervent communists are now the most fervent anti-Communists, despite the sweat, tears, blood and emotional energy they invested in the Communist ideals, and no matter how fervently they believed in them.
The enablers, who wanted it with every fibre of their being, are now the victims. How nice and Oprah-fied. This doesn't even muster the same ocnsideration given to the famous German "I was just following orders" defense.
It's all revisionist history, all based on avoiding the guilt and shame (and stupidity) they feel, and about avoiding the wrath of the younger generation (which has nothing thanks to the efforts of their elders), and the former "comrades" they all dutifully reported to the police and who managed to survive the Gulag with memory intact.
Spannie is merely one symptom of the more general disease.
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