Free Republic
Browse · Search
News/Activism
Topics · Post Article

Skip to comments.

When Islam Breaks Down
City Journal ^ | Spring 2004 | Theodore Dalrymple

Posted on 04/02/2006 12:53:12 PM PDT by KDD

click here to read article


Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
first previous 1-2021-4041-43 next last
To: KDD

Outstanding. Thanks for posting.

p.


21 posted on 04/02/2006 3:24:20 PM PDT by Paul_B
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: KDD

bflr


22 posted on 04/02/2006 4:15:41 PM PDT by JDoutrider
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: KDD
Islam can't reform because it is designed and engineered not to be reformable. Dalrymple doesn't seem to reflect much on the possibility that Islam is different because what the Koran says is different from what the Bible says. Because the Muslims he encounters do not talk about the text of the Koran themselves, Dalrymple directs his considerable analytical talents elsewhere in search of the problem, but I think this is a mistake. Even though they may be unaware of the Koran's text, young Mulsim men still absorb its precepts and attitudes by osmosis. If you ask a young Muslim man in prison which verse in the Koran is it wherein Allah through Mohammed stipulates that non-Muslim women in wartime can be taken as "temporary brides," i.e. raped, he will have no idea what you are talking about. If however you ask if Western women are whores and if it is not a big deal if they are raped, I believe you would encounter a response fully in concert with the spirit of the Koran. Such is the origin of tournante, which Dalrymple has written about. The fact that the Koran nearly explicitly licenses tournante doesn't seem to be interesting to Dalrymple. You don't have to be a scholar in Koranic hermeneutics to walk away with the impression that Koran offers to Muslims a free pass to do anything you want, no matter how cruel to people who do not self identify as part of the tribe of Muslims, especially women. This is simply not true of the Bible. The spirit of the Bible (mostly the New Testament) is to be kind to unbelievers. The spirit of the Koran is to be cruel to unbelievers.

Thus it is not a matter of merely time for Islam to temper itself. Islam can only 'reform' by becoming the opposite of what its core text mandates, i.e. by becoming vigorously un-Islamic. Given that this is the case, what is the point of even using such terminology?

I am beginning to think Islam will be 'reformed' the way Shinto was.

23 posted on 04/02/2006 4:30:06 PM PDT by caspera
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: longtermmemmory

But the Mohammedans who mindlessly chant "Death to Christians" might find your comment "insensitive," and the ACLU certainly will not allow that!!!

Better to arm yourself, and get in some target practice. The war is coming.


24 posted on 04/02/2006 8:22:30 PM PDT by Emmet Fitzhume ("It is better to be alone than in bad company.")
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 18 | View Replies]

To: KDD

Great piece. Thanks for posting.


25 posted on 04/02/2006 11:10:23 PM PDT by Defiant (Muslim Unitarian:There is no God but Abraham's, and Mohammed said he was his prophet.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: longtermmemmory

Thank you. I hope little hope for the "modernizing" or "moderation" of Islam, unless by some miracle millions of Middle Easterners began to copy the secularist Turks. I visited Istanbul about six years ago, admittedly the most secular area in Turkey. The attitude of many Turkish people I met towards Islam was similar to the attitude most Japanese have towards Shinto --- religion as purely spiritual and cultural --- not political and militarist.

Unfortunately, most Japanese arrived as this attitude after atomic bombs fell on Hiroshima & Nagasaki.


26 posted on 04/03/2006 2:45:20 AM PDT by griffmorpho
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 18 | View Replies]

To: caspera
Fine remarks by you. This thread is from a Dalrymple essay of two years ago. His more recent thinking is here
27 posted on 04/03/2006 2:54:26 AM PDT by dennisw (If you know the enemy and know yourself you need not fear the results of a hundred battles-Sun Tzu)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 23 | View Replies]

Comment #28 Removed by Moderator

Theodore Dalrymple:

...The Muslim immigrants to these areas were not seeking a new way of life when they arrived; they expected to continue their old lives, but more prosperously. They neither anticipated, nor wanted, the inevitable cultural tensions of translocation, and they certainly never suspected that in the long run they could not maintain their culture and their religion intact. The older generation is only now realizing that even outward conformity to traditional codes of dress and behavior by the young is no longer a guarantee of inner acceptance (a perception that makes their vigilantism all the more pronounced and desperate). Recently I stood at the taxi stand outside my hospital, beside two young women in full black costume, with only a slit for the eyes. One said to the other, “Give us a light for a fag, love; I’m gasping.” Release the social pressure on the girls, and they would abandon their costume in an instant.

Anyone who lives in a city like mine and interests himself in the fate of the world cannot help wondering whether, deeper than this immediate cultural desperation, there is anything intrinsic to Islam—beyond the devout Muslim’s instinctive understanding that secularization, once it starts, is like an unstoppable chain reaction—that renders it unable to adapt itself comfortably to the modern world. Is there an essential element that condemns the Dar al-Islam to permanent backwardness with regard to the Dar al-Harb, a backwardness that is felt as a deep humiliation, and is exemplified, though not proved, by the fact that the whole of the Arab world, minus its oil, matters less to the rest of the world economically than the Nokia telephone company of Finland?

I think the answer is yes, and that the problem begins with Islam’s failure to make a distinction between church and state. Unlike Christianity, which had to spend its first centuries developing institutions clandestinely and so from the outset clearly had to separate church from state, Islam was from its inception both church and state, one and indivisible, with no possible distinction between temporal and religious authority. Muhammad’s power was seamlessly spiritual and secular (although the latter grew ultimately out of the former), and he bequeathed this model to his followers. Since he was, by Islamic definition, the last prophet of God upon earth, his was a political model whose perfection could not be challenged or questioned without the total abandonment of the pretensions of the entire religion.

But his model left Islam with two intractable problems. One was political. Muhammad unfortunately bequeathed no institutional arrangements by which his successors in the role of omnicompetent ruler could be chosen (and, of course, a schism occurred immediately after the Prophet’s death, with some—today’s Sunnites—following his father-in-law, and some—today’s Shi’ites—his son-in-law). Compounding this difficulty, the legitimacy of temporal power could always be challenged by those who, citing Muhammad’s spiritual role, claimed greater religious purity or authority; the fanatic in Islam is always at a moral advantage vis-à-vis the moderate. Moreover, Islam—in which the mosque is a meetinghouse, not an institutional church—has no established, anointed ecclesiastical hierarchy to decide such claims authoritatively. With political power constantly liable to challenge from the pious, or the allegedly pious, tyranny becomes the only guarantor of stability, and assassination the only means of reform. Hence the Saudi time bomb: sooner or later, religious revolt will depose a dynasty founded upon its supposed piety but long since corrupted by the ways of the world.

The second problem is intellectual. In the West, the Renaissance, the Reformation, and the Enlightenment, acting upon the space that had always existed, at least potentially, in Christianity between church and state, liberated individual men to think for themselves, and thus set in motion an unprecedented and still unstoppable material advancement. Islam, with no separate, secular sphere where inquiry could flourish free from the claims of religion, if only for technical purposes, was hopelessly left behind: as, several centuries later, it still is.

The indivisibility of any aspect of life from any other in Islam is a source of strength, but also of fragility and weakness, for individuals as well as for polities. Where all conduct, all custom, has a religious sanction and justification, any change is a threat to the whole system of belief. Certainty that their way of life is the right one thus coexists with fear that the whole edifice—intellectual and political—will come tumbling down if it is tampered with in any way. Intransigence is a defense against doubt and makes living on terms of true equality with others who do not share the creed impossible.

Not coincidentally, the punishment for apostasy in Islam is death: apostates are regarded as far worse than infidels, and punished far more rigorously. In every Islamic society, and indeed among Britain’s Muslim immigrants, there are people who take this idea quite literally, as their rage against Salman Rushdie testified.

The Islamic doctrine of apostasy is hardly favorable to free inquiry or frank discussion, to say the least, and surely it explains why no Muslim, or former Muslim, in an Islamic society would dare to suggest that the Qu’ran was not divinely dictated through the mouth of the Prophet but rather was a compilation of a charismatic man’s words made many years after his death, and incorporating, with no very great originality, Judaic, Christian, and Zoroastrian elements. In my experience, devout Muslims expect and demand a freedom to criticize, often with perspicacity, the doctrines and customs of others, while demanding an exaggerated degree of respect and freedom from criticism for their own doctrines and customs. I recall, for example, staying with a Pakistani Muslim in East Africa, a very decent and devout man, who nevertheless spent several evenings with me deriding the absurdities of Christianity: the paradoxes of the Trinity, the impossibility of Resurrection, and so forth. Though no Christian myself, had I replied in kind, alluding to the pagan absurdities of the pilgrimage to Mecca, or to the gross, ignorant, and primitive superstitions of the Prophet with regard to jinn, I doubt that our friendship would have lasted long.

The unassailable status of the Qu’ran in Islamic education, thought, and society is ultimately Islam’s greatest disadvantage in the modern world. Such unassailability does not debar a society from great artistic achievement or charms of its own: great and marvelous civilizations have flourished without the slightest intellectual freedom. I myself prefer a souk to a supermarket any day, as a more human, if less economically efficient, institution. But until Muslims (or former Muslims, as they would then be) are free in their own countries to denounce the Qu’ran as an inferior hodgepodge of contradictory injunctions, without intellectual unity (whether it is so or not)—until they are free to say with Carlyle that the Qu’ran is “a wearisome confused jumble” with “endless iterations, longwindedness, entanglement”—until they are free to remake and modernize the Qu’ran by creative interpretation, they will have to reconcile themselves to being, if not helots, at least in the rearguard of humanity, as far as power and technical advance are concerned.

...And the problem is that so many Muslims want both stagnation and power: they want a return to the perfection of the seventh century and to dominate the twenty-first, as they believe is the birthright of their doctrine, the last testament of God to man. If they were content to exist in a seventh-century backwater, secure in a quietist philosophy, there would be no problem for them or us; their problem, and ours, is that they want the power that free inquiry confers, without either the free inquiry or the philosophy and institutions that guarantee that free inquiry. They are faced with a dilemma: either they abandon their cherished religion, or they remain forever in the rear of human technical advance. Neither alternative is very appealing; and the tension between their desire for power and success in the modern world on the one hand, and their desire not to abandon their religion on the other, is resolvable for some only by exploding themselves as bombs.

People grow angry when faced with an intractable dilemma; they lash out...

...But the anger of Muslims, their demand that their sensibilities should be accorded a more than normal respect, is a sign not of the strength but of the weakness—or rather, the brittleness—of Islam in the modern world, the desperation its adherents feel that it could so easily fall to pieces...


29 posted on 04/03/2006 11:35:35 AM PDT by Tolik
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 28 | View Replies]

To: KDD; Lando Lincoln; quidnunc; .cnI redruM; Valin; King Prout; SJackson; dennisw; monkeyshine; ...
Theodore Dalrymple:

...the problem is that so many Muslims want both stagnation and power: they want a return to the perfection of the seventh century and to dominate the twenty-first, as they believe is the birthright of their doctrine, the last testament of God to man. If they were content to exist in a seventh-century backwater, secure in a quietist philosophy, there would be no problem for them or us; their problem, and ours, is that they want the power that free inquiry confers, without either the free inquiry or the philosophy and institutions that guarantee that free inquiry.


Theodore Dalrymple Nailed It !  

Read the complete article or an excerpt in the post 29. Don't miss the excellent commentary by  caspera in the post 23

This ping list is not author-specific for articles I'd like to share. Some for the perfect moral clarity, some for provocative thoughts; or simply interesting articles I'd hate to miss myself. (I don't have to agree with the author all 100% to feel the need to share an article.) I will try not to abuse the ping list and not to annoy you too much, but on some days there is more of the good stuff that is worthy of attention. You can see the list of articles I pinged to lately  on  my page.
You are welcome in or out, just freepmail me (and note which PING list you are talking about). Besides this one, I keep 2 separate PING lists for my favorite authors Victor Davis Hanson and Orson Scott Card.  

30 posted on 04/03/2006 11:43:05 AM PDT by Tolik
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: GBoettner

Immediately. No point in prolonging the inevitable.

Out of 6 billion people in the world, 1 billion are Muslims. Apparently a large percentage of that 1 billion are crazy enough to think they can dominate the rest of us and return their "golden age" of Islam Empire, and would love to use nuclear weapons on us.

Let's say it's only 10 percent crazies out of 1 billion Muslims (though I fear it's much more). That's still a lot of Islamofascists with a thirst for fission.

These folks are crazier than the Nazis or Fascist Japan.

Such crazy people must NEVER be permitted to get their hands on nukes --- which they are desperately working to do.


31 posted on 04/03/2006 5:53:05 PM PDT by griffmorpho
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 28 | View Replies]

To: KDD

Outstanding.


32 posted on 04/03/2006 6:26:56 PM PDT by quesney
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

Comment #33 Removed by Moderator

To: Thanx A. Lott
Thanks a lot --- for pointing out the excellent website "Prophet of Doom" - by Craig Winn.

One of the most damaging effects of political correctness & multiculturalism is the refusal by many people, including President Bush, to name the enemy of reason, democracy and individual rights --- Islam.

It's as if the Allies went through WWII without ever once mentioning the Nazis or the Fascists of Italy & Japan. Or the Cold War without saying the word "communism". Absolutely ridiculous.

I will definitely recommend "Prophet of Doom" to others.
34 posted on 04/05/2006 6:25:10 AM PDT by griffmorpho
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 33 | View Replies]

To: griffmorpho

The crazies already have the Bomb. Pakistan set one off in the late 1990s. Pakistan is far less stable many another ME nation tottering on the brink.


35 posted on 04/09/2006 4:24:01 PM PDT by attiladhun2 (evolution has both deified and degraded humanity)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 31 | View Replies]

To: KDD

Bump.


36 posted on 05/05/2006 6:04:20 AM PDT by SuperSonic (Bush "Lied", People Dyed.....their fingers Purple.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: tkathy
Their death rattle is mighty loud.

My first thought as well.

37 posted on 05/05/2006 6:18:22 AM PDT by Fruitbat
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 9 | View Replies]

To: caspera

GREAT points!


38 posted on 05/05/2006 6:22:07 AM PDT by Fruitbat
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 23 | View Replies]

To: dennisw
Fine remarks by you. This thread is from a Dalrymple essay of two years ago. His more recent thinking is here

I went to "here" and didn't find any links to anything specifically regarding Islam. Little came up however in one link or another. Is there anything in specific that he's written in the meantime that is significantly different than the above?

39 posted on 05/05/2006 6:23:20 AM PDT by Fruitbat
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 27 | View Replies]

To: KDD

bump to read later


40 posted on 05/05/2006 6:26:01 AM PDT by EternalHope (Boycott everything French forever. Including their vassal nations.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]


Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
first previous 1-2021-4041-43 next last

Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.

Free Republic
Browse · Search
News/Activism
Topics · Post Article

FreeRepublic, LLC, PO BOX 9771, FRESNO, CA 93794
FreeRepublic.com is powered by software copyright 2000-2008 John Robinson